Primal Anarchy Podcast

Ep. 20: Ship of Fools?

June 11, 2019

Podcast housecleaning. Talking about the upcoming revised and expanded second edition of For Wildness and Anarchy, reading the new introduction. A little more book talk and Daniel Immerwahr’s How to Hide an Empire. Ted Kaczynski and the Ship of Fools. Sorry everyone, Ted is an awful writer and worse thinker. The revolutionary reductionism and hope for a singular focus. It’s impossible and stupid, civilization is the entire picture and if we don’t account for the details, we miss the whole thing. Outro music: Burning Empires - Emerging Primal.

Hello and welcome to Primal Anarchy Podcast, episode 20. It is June 11th, 2019. I'm your host, Kevin Tucker. And. I was thinking I should at least do one podcast a month here and I am one day short of a month so. Here we go. Maybe this is a new trend. I do want to see if I can actually get to at least two episodes a month trying to remind myself to do the podcast a bit more regularly, and I have some ideas for kind of like mini series on the podcast to discuss things like. Basics of primal anarchy, or even just the details of it, and I'd really like to start doing interviews on the podcast as well. I'm just not that good at technology, so I haven't taken the time to figure out how to translate that really well yet, but I'm going to, so hopefully I'll be getting up to more podcasts. More regularly, but also having my. Deep research and writing stage right now, as well as working on stuff for wild resistance, #7 interviews and things like that. So it means that I've got a lot of really random stuff will come across that I would typically like to share and probably a considerable number of rage spirals, good old-fashioned rage spirals to go with that. So maybe we'll see. I don't. I don't like the promise things that I don't necessarily know I'll deliver. I tend to forget about doing podcasts and also. So I have been doing a number of interviews not as much recently, but I got a bunch of more that I'm lining up and when I do interviews I tend to forget that I haven't done my own podcast. I do want to plug again the interview I had with James Jesso. That's adventure through the Mind podcast, and so that's a podcast. And it's also on YouTube as well. That was covering cold personality in Iasco and James Jesso does come from. The psychedelics community, whatever you want to call it, as it adventures through the mind, the name of it might entail, so that interview I'm. I'm really, really happy with that one. I'm happy with all the ones that come out recently and everything but that one in particular. If you're like this podcast, feel like what I'd say, you're definitely going to want to listen. To that and. I'm going to go ahead and plug my books as well. Gathered remains which came out in 2018 called Personality came out in 2019. Kevin tucker.org has the information. If you go to this website, Primal, Primal Anarchy. Org it has all of that as well and links for where to get the books, but if you're interested at all in the podcast, I can go ahead and tell you that my books are better. I think about them ahead of time. I don't come into it with no notes. I research them meticulously and I take time and I think about it. I don't just turn on the microphone and start talking, so yeah. Speaking of that, so I did the I did the series on my book recommendations. If you're new to this podcast, those those I've been recommending a good bit lately, and the list for the books that were recommended in all three episodes are in the descriptions on primalanarchy.org as well. I am kicking around the idea again. Of doing primer of sorts and I put out the question I'm interested in getting more feedback and obviously if anybody on here could write me as well, you can write to blackandgreenpress@gmail.com that's black and green press@gmail.com and let me know what you think. The ideas that I have would be either writing something. Those more like an overview, introductory kind of polemic with resources or something that was going to be very in depth. Just walking through. All the aspects of primal anarchy in really great detail. I have to say that the in depth one would get pushed down very quickly on the list of books that I'm already working on, and I'm working again on my my main book of gods and Country which deals with missionaries and the origins of religion, missionaries and agents of colonialism. There's a there's a couple of other books that. I've got that are going to be going up in that list as well pretty quickly, but I'm not going to necessarily get into all that right now, but I just. Will say that if I was going to. Write something was a bit more polemic. I think I can do it. Faster and I probably be able. To squeeze it in a little bit easier so. I'm interested in seeing what people would like the other thing too about the really in depth one is that. I cover a lot of this stuff already, and if you if you want to look at my books in particular and how I approach it. So for wildness, anarchy is more of a general. Overview It's got some like more specific stuff in it as well, but then by the time we get together, remains like this is this is much deeper levels of critique. And also just like the writing change, so the book the essays and for almost anarchy from 2000 to 2010, everything from gathered remains was from I think the earliest thing is 2014. And then 2018 being the last thing that was in there. And then coal, which came out this year, was written at the very end of last. And all those things are much more like in depth and deep dive and more heavily researched and just even as my writing style has changed or my approach is writers changed. It deals with things at a much deeper level, so there will be aspects of a very in depth. Overview Kind of piece or introductory or just just look at prime anarchy that are going to be redundant with things that I've already written, which is kind of hard for. But I understand wanting to have it all in one place and organized in a better way, but the overview could still be in depth, but it wouldn't be written in the same kind of style it wouldn't. It would have the resources, but not the citations. I think I. Could do that quicker, so I'm just kind of gauging. Interest on it. It's I get this request a lot. So that's kind of the reason that it it keeps coming back up and I want to make sure. If it is something people feel is necessary that I can provide it, I've had a couple people ask about, like a very, very short version, like 20-3 pages or something like that. Short and I don't always get along and there's kind of a lot of ground to cover. If I wanted to make it a primer, just realistically I think that like, you know what I'm thinking a short overview kind of thing, it's probably going to be 1/2. 100 pages or something like that. So I'm interested in. Getting people opinions people's takes, but I do think that what I'll probably end up doing will be as I as I kind of lay it out and work through it. I will do a podcast series. Going into that and kind of covering it all, not just reading it, but just kind of covering the same topics and just going with it that way. And if you listen to the. Podcast that's probably good news. So everybody else, you might just say **** them, I don't know. But whatever it. Is let me know. We know your opinions. So we get your feedback. I appreciate it greatly and any feedback at all. I appreciate it. If there's anything you ever want me to read on the air, I do get letters. I just typically don't read them unless I've been. Made aware that I should so yeah, you can send that to blackandgreenpress@gmail.com and yeah, let me know if I'm supposed to read it and respond. To it on the air. But Speaking of books, I am very very very very very close to having for one synarchy the 2nd revised and expanded edition out or I'm sorry to the printer I'm going to be doing a Kickstarter campaign or some kind of go fund me kind of thing. I would like to think. By the end of this week, I might be able to get that going. I sent off for estimates and everything from the printer, so there's a good chance that it could come sooner than later, and also I'm really hoping that the Kickstarter, whatever the funding campaign, the funding, the fundraiser. Does considerably better than just covering this book alone. Black and green is pretty considerable debt and I'd really like to wear that down. So I'm also thinking about other things I can add into it. Other kind of. You know, reprinting shirts or whatever. Whatever I can do to make things available and make things more enticing. To give donations to help out. I'll let me know what you're interested in seeing, and I'll do my best to get that going because I would really like to chisel it down and I'm really eager to get this book out as. Well, I ended up cutting a couple of essays. there’s some stuff in there that, you know, I had the last episode talking about my habits as a writer and some of the things I look for. As an editor, and I was doing all that. Because I was going through my own stuff from, you know, 2000 to 2010. Looking through my old stuff makes it really easy for me to. Lay out what kinds of things I'm looking for and being very critical of myself. And I ended up making a lot of edits this book, the 2nd edition of this book is almost. In some ways, almost unrecognizable from the first, considerably, considerably better. But yeah, getting rid of a couple of things that. I just thought were. You know, I was grinding my teeth a little too much, reading them and then adding a couple things back in with an essay. And again,

• Anthropology; that was in species trader. That's in there now. And then I added...

• An interview I did with the 5th column from 2015.

• Hit where it hurts, but in the meantime; which is a response that I've written to Ted Kaczynski's hit where it hurts that was in green anarchy, 2003 or 2004. And then a previously unpublished essay which is called...

• Understanding collapse; which lays, lays out a lot more about the ideas of collapse and collapse theory and things like that kind of background to stuff that ended up being.

In these actual essays and there. Is a lot I. Was working on at the time. Particularly from 2002 on, I started working on this book called Catalyst. I was originally thinking I might stick. Bits of cows. I did write a good bit of that in for Wales. But honestly, it's just a lot of work, and it's there's still stuff. I like the notes I have and everything like that. I mean, there’s good stuff in there and I do kind of pillage it a little bit here and there and some of the other writings I've done and some of those ideas have gone on to be in essays that are gathered, remains a cult personality and of gods and country. So I just don't like to be redundant and I don't want to go through and spend a bunch of time editing something that. Could potentially become redundant or is still feels incomplete, or you know honestly just gives the point where I'm reading through it. I'm like I should just rewrite this whole thing, which is a very real point, and the point I'd hit a number of times with some stuff with for wildness. Anarchy, but. Whittled that down considerably and made a number of changes, so I think this is a much better book. And like I said, it's. There are deeper aspects of it. There are some of the essays that do give more of a look into things, but for the for the most part, if you're looking for, you know, starting from zero. Or just just curiosity, just wanted covering a lot of ground. This book definitely definitely does that. So yeah, there's been a lot of interest for it. So I'm just kind of do my best to keep it and make it the best version of itself that it should be. And I am having this so I will read. The introduction I wrote to the second edition here. For wildness and anarchy over time, critiques deepen. Turns can be amended and expanded upon. When you're dealing with something as involved in far reaching a civilization, there are a lot of moving pieces. That's why it has always been important for me to put what I'm fighting for front and center. Wildness and anarchy. The title automatically clear that this is the. Baseline of this book. And also the foundation of all my work that has come since. While this is intently different from wilderness like Primal Anarchy, it's flowing reality, one that has shaped who we are as a social. Animal it's not about a place and time. It's not a location. It's the wild spirit of the world. Wildness like Primal Anarchy is also something better understood and complexity than strictly defined. The more we try to tamp it down into simple definitions, the more we are going to necessarily reduce it to a concept of box up steps that help it become a plaything. For marketers and gurus for everything, civilization is thrown at or torn. In this world, it is the persistence of the wild, the untamable aspects of our primal anarchy which inspire me. The world that we live in, the world that civilization has carved into the Earth's flesh, that technology accelerates that colonization forces into its grasp that warfare decimates and divides remains under assault. The path that we have been set upon through domestication, the narratives of progress that have long been whispered into our ears and plastered before our eyes. All of this is to conceal that part of ourselves that begs for will. This is meant to cover up our need for community and our visceral distaste for authority. Civilization is a history of failed attempts to bury our hunger for a life without work, without sales pitches for meaning and purpose, we reach for for perfection and miss that the most egalitarian and sustainable societies that have ever existed, those of nomadic hunter gatherers. Are written into our bones and minds. We have been sold substitutions for life piece meal. We work for them, we pay for them, we oppose them upon others and pat ourselves in the back when we feel we have succeeded. We see our story as. A linear path. Perpetual conquest becomes an accepted part of our reality. Dissecting that narrative is the core of this book. The essays can remind us of the realities of civilization that we live in, or possibly awakening us to them for the first time. When the narratives and domestication work that a living history can be buried in plain sight, we live within the remnants of the world under attack, surrounded by monuments, preemptively proclaiming victory and an often one sided battle. The stories we were told, are a patchwork of bravado. And hubris. When you pull the strings all. Of it comes undone. My goal is to strip civilization of its clothes to expose it. The essays in this book, written between 2000 and 2010, take on a number of different voices and approaches with that moment. With that momentum, some feel raw, others more refined. Taken as a whole, they covered this much of the span of an anti civilization critique. From here it unfurls in many directions. There is no aspect of civilization that should be spared of shredding its mythology and attacking its ongoing process. The following the flow power remains tethered to a finite earth. The systems in place to keep that power moving more in form and intensity, but they follow the same patterns of civilization, always has. History doesn't repeat itself. The old wounds just remain open. And the world we face now is in many ways, cataclysm can be cataclysmically worse. None of the warnings were heated, nothing was learned from the mistakes of the past. There been moments. Where it felt like a reckoning was coming when we were almost going to address climate change and endemic Dios. But those efforts were diluted into symbolic policy proposals. Our world is on fire, flooding in regions, parts and on fire, and others worse continue unabated. As we again header closer to nuclear war, children continue to suffer the worst of it all. For those who have known what to look for, there is no satisfaction in being right. There's no moment where prediction coming true feels at all hopeful or satisfying. The point was never to prophetically portray what was to come, but the voice clearing call that we have power and agency, we can do something about this. The world has always fought civilization. The world is struggling. The wild remains. That's why I put. It up to four. I'm floor up front. It's not enough to be a critic. It's not enough to hope that some catalog of decline will find its place amongst our impending ruins. It's never enough to just take in all the destruction and watch it unfold. We are still here. The Earth is still here, realizing our place in this world. Guarantees nothing. Feeling our part, both in the destruction of life and perseverance of it, offers no safety net, no parachute, no bailout, and no bug out bag. But it gives us the chance to feel that life, to struggle alongside it, to fight back. It is vital to never lose sight of what is at stake and what is being lost and destroyed in this world. Our home, our planet, our lives, the lives of those we know and those we will never. Know is my goal. To expose the foundations of civilization. In doing so, we can also find that our own grounding in this world hands in the soil feed on the earth. Another thing the realities of power, of civilization. Should make you feel and feeling is what leads to action, not for ideologies, not for philosophies, but for what the wild spirit of the world that beckon. For wildness, for anarchy, we have nothing promised to us in this life. Yet this life carries on and patiently awaiting our return, one way or another, we are agents of this in this world, on fire, how will you use? Yours if you encounter the 1st edition of this book, which came out in 2010, then you might notice considerable changes for this massively revised. In addition, when I first compiled these essays, many of which had been printed and distributed thousands of times, I wanted to remain true to how they had originally been presented. I didn't change them much. In hindsight, not making many necessary corrections or ironing out difficult and rough passages was a mistake. That's his version. Some of this is in the original version didn't age as well, so they were removed and others were updated as were necessary. A few new ones have been included, along with an interview I did with the 5th column from 2015 which should round out the insights. In this book. I wish a number of topics in this book would have long lost relevance over time, but sadly they have not. Along with the resurgence of fascism, obliquely unaware, socialism is also on the rise.

Internet culture has given Ted Kaczynski as an icon, and it's an ideologue, a new audience. I'm far less forgiving of his quirks now than I was in 2005. Nearly everything written about technology here was written before social media and cell phones became the predominant means of communication and worse interaction with the world by references to TV seem almost quaint in comparison. But the critiques only become more potent. There are many aspects of this book that I would have approached differently. Now it's clear where I've grown as a writer and developed as the critiques unfold. I've spent plenty of time elaborating and more developed and nuanced analysis of civilization in my recent books. Gathered remains and cold personality as well. A number of other books currently in the works. That conversation manifests in the page of wild resistance journal Primal Anarchy, which I founded in 2015 as Black and green. Review if any of this is of interest. I assure you that all of those projects and books will be too all told, I want the lengths to make sure that the essays in this book are the best versions they could be. I have a great thanks to Jessica carry craft. Her commitment to helping me through the elaborate appraisal process. The extent to which this reads smoother is largely due to. Her watchful eye and guidance. There are some corrections that I was eager to make for years I've been making the effort to say, gather hunter over hunter gatherer, a well-intentioned move that was intending to correct male biases, but ultimately negates the role that hunting plays within hunter gatherer societies. As well as the role women play in hunting and fishing and the importance of meat, fish and fowl hold that. Meat, fish and foul hold within these societies. In attempting to. Flip the perspective. I fear that I had unfortunately upheld the imposed here hierarchies we've already imposed upon indigenous societies. That's an error I don't take lightly. Around 2004 I started talking. About primal anarchy. In the time since, I've increasingly moved away from the term anarcho primitivism towards an embrace of primal anarchy on its own. There are a number of reasons for this elaborate in the elaborated in the essay to the captives from wild resistance #6. They include reckoning with the fact that I wasn't using the word primitive without quotes or clarifiers for well over a decade already. But also the. Fact that primitivism, as a term lack any real reference point other than historical. I have long felt that anarchy from his critique had outgrown its questioning stage, and we have found enough discernible answers and roots to assert ourselves more clearly. Primarily argue. This light is less about what had happened, but what is happening. The critique isn't about to fall from grace, but the realization that we were born to be nomadic hunter gatherers. The narrative of domestication has always required a notion of social evolution, an effort to make concrete the idea that we have passed the point of no return to make us feel like we collect collectively made a choice and a civilization. One it hasn't. It won't. Civilization has always been resisted. Always and. No point. Did anyone? In any society, ever simply just accept the narrative and carry on. We adapted considerably too much. We take part in the destruction of our home, our Earth, and all life upon. But as we've been within our grasp to change that, we may be the last to realize this, but it. Doesn't change our. Reality, undoubtedly, where we are, we are where we are now. The world as we see it and feel it remains in a state of complete and utter free fall. Once we begin to undermine those narratives, once we begin to see beyond them, and then maybe, just maybe. We'll begin to see that others have survived civilization. Despite everything that civilization has done to this world, I'm hoping the earth is far more adaptive than we have been. So that is the introduction to the second edition of for wildness and. Anarchy, which, like I said, I think the funding campaign should hopefully be up later this week or early next week. And then as soon as that gets going, as soon as. The funds get pulled up. It will go to the. Printer 336 pages. And it's got. Amazing cover art Ellie Joe Gill. She did the it's actually it is the benefit poster that we did for the benefit. I don't know the end of last year. I lose track of time pretty easily, but that's awesome. The art is awesome. I'm really stoked about that and I think the cover is amazing and adding to the list of amazing artists I've been fortunate enough to work with for covers. So real quick, I know I've recommended this book a couple Times Now. How to hide an empire from Daniel? And Roar is one of those books that. With the research I'm doing everything like that, it can be really hard for me to get other books in, but sometimes you find books that just have to be read and this one is really excellent if you want to try and understand particularly. The period from like 1900 to. It was 1960, I think that probably be the main period covered in the book. It does go back considerably further and forward up to the present, but in terms of understanding the differences between colonialism and imperialism and the way that empire was approached and also not acknowledged at all by Americans. or within the American mindset of the American idea of itself is pointed out by what he calls the logo map, which is just the idea of people have America as the lower 48 and. I think it's. At the end of the Second World War, I think it was American Empire had expanded so much ground. That a third of its landmass was off the was beyond the lower 48 and he really lays it out and talks about.

It a.

Lot about colonialism and you know, even getting into guano A considerable amount and then talking about. The shift in. Resource extraction methods and technologies and how that impacts colonialism and how that impacts the idea of empire as owning grounds versus developing what it calls the pointless empire, which is what we have now, where the Americas have, or where America has. I think 8 or 900 military bases throughout the world, and it's just like all these following these same kind of paths of power and. It’s in some ways it really. Kind of matches well. With the James Bridal's new. Dark Age, which I've talked about in the book. As well about. Technology really following these old colonial maps. But yeah, so this book. Strongly recommend. So I do want to. Read a little bit here from the book just a little. Section just give. A kind of an idea about where was like. And so this section is the end of talking about the Second World War, and Japan had taken over large loss of US and European colonies in during World War 2. And the strategy that was used, Douglas MacArthur, kind of like jumping back behind the line and bringing it forward, really. Built up all these kind of like colonial insanity and you saw that. All over, not fully established parts or not fully. Recognized parts of the American Empire at the time, and then even looking at like the Alouettes and of Alaska, was indigenous society up there. They were being interned during World War Two. It doesn't get talked about very much, but they, you know, they were being actively put on guard against Russia, against Japan and then. End up being interned as well. So in this section he's talking about the wars that happened in the Philippines and how the second war had impacted and the battles that were being fought in the Philippines and how that really didn't even register on the American mind in terms of the Philippines being a US territory at that time. So I think this story really kind of. Sums that up. Oscar Villa Dalid, a boy at the time, remembers a familiar scene from the aftermath. Manila's liberation, Ajai, came down his St. handing out cigarettes in Hershey bars. Speaking slowly, he asked Villa Dale's name. When Villa Dalid replied in easy English, their soldier was startled. How'd you learn American? He asked. Villada explained that when the United States. As the Philippines, it had instituted English in the schools. The only this only compounded the GI's confusion. He did not even know that America had a colony here in the Philippines full. Of dog marveled. Taking them to let that sink in, this was a soldier who had taken a long journey across the Pacific. He'd been briefed on his mission, shown maps told where to go and whom to shoot. Yet at no point had it dawned on him that he was preparing to save US colony, and that the people he would encounter there were just like him, US nationals. He thought he was invading a foreign country. So yeah, there's a lot in this book that is really, really good, but the chapter in there called synthetica is. So there’s chapters. I find all the time. I'm like you. You if you're just going to read a chapter of this book, this would be the one synthetica is really important. Particularly for me, especially because it comes into talking about the rubber trade, which of? Course they talked. About in cold personality and I brought on the podcast before there was a resurgence of old colonial ties with rubber plantations and rubber tappers. Around World War 2. And you realize just how much warfare determines civilizations course, and how much colonialism determines warfare would end up happening is that when Japan was annexing US, and British and European territories during World War Two, and had cut off access to them, it meant that it had cut off access to the resources that had come from those regions. And we're disrupted this all around, that's why. The Nazis invented rayon during World War Two because they lost access to silk. So what would end up happening was, is that all these territories have been annexed? Because the rubber plantations. Had been switched to from wild rubber trees and vines in the Amazon and the Congo to Asian plantations. Round 19141915. But when they lost access to those rubber plantations in World War Two, then they tried to kick back up the old rubber trade. That's why there's a little bit of a. Blip about it. And then the Nazis and Americans were racing to see who could synthesize. Rubber most efficiently and it ended up being the United States of so. When rubber kind of comes up and down and goes off the map again, you can see how these old colonial lines and the shifting relationship of colonialism and capitalism and imperialism. They're really just super opportunistic and he talks about it throughout in this, this entire book, technological problems, technological solution. And that determined the nature of empire, which is really, really good. And it's again, you know, fits really well with the primary against this kind of critique and trying to understand how power shifts and it's one of the things that tends to go missing if you're just approaching all this from just like a strictly. Anti capitalist. Kind of. Of all these things come from somewhere, and all civilizations run off of resources and all civilizations. Run off of the need to conquer and colonize to keep feeding this mathematical impossibility, which is the idea of having infinite growth on a finite planet. That's the nature of civilization in a nutshell. It's just this impossible scenario where constant growth. Needs to exist. New input needs to come in all the time, so a lot of that gets covered in the book and I think and you know I'm. Certain, very kind of like lateral ways. And I'm not assuming or presuming in any way or thinking that the author is secretly in our approvals or anything like that, have nothing of the sort, but this comes back to that idea that the more you pull any of these threads of civilization, the more the entirety of it. And it comes and done in looking at the history of empire and the span of empire and how empire spread and why they spread. Is a really good starting point to figure that out. So motion that and I know I've mentioned Greg Brandon under the myth, which I think fits in with this very well. And then both of these books play very, very well. With facing West, which is an older book, but it also ties in about the idea of expansion borders and frontiers, predominantly in the 19th and 20th centuries, which is where, you know, we've really set the table for where things come.

The main thing I wanted to get to tonight. Looking at these critiques and talking to people about them more and talking about doing primers and talking about doing things like this and even talking about fascism with other people, I’ve gotten this sense for a while and it's been in kind of like primers, enough accused that I've done for a considerable amount of time now where I've. Get the sense from people that they think that in anti self critique or primal anarchist critique or Erica previous critique. Is lacking because it has no critiques of or it hadn't fully articulated critiques of capitalism in the same way that you know, naturally socialists or Communists or anarcho socialists or communists had. And a part of that really is just because, you know the the, the building of this critique. I mean, even if there are decades old, it still is covering a lot of ground. It's still a lot of ground to cover and the most obvious thing was going to always be. Covering the areas that you know for the most part left us and even post leftists hadn't been covering it, especially in ultra. Left had been dipping into, but not laying out as much as we had. And I I. Feel like, particularly with the journal with wild resistance, we've been doing a better job at filling in those gaps. And John's been doing a lot of historical pieces for a while now, and you know, just having other people who are coming in and bringing in different aspects of the critiques. But as fascism is on the rise. It’s natural that this is something that gets brought up and it's not going to be working on. For a collection that will probably be out until next year, and I probably won't have the best done. I know I won't have the peace done for a while, but I mean, fascism is something. Obviously we we're against something that we come up against as much as anybody else, but there are particular brands of ECO fascism that I don't feel lateral with. And I know this is not a universal for green artists at this point, which is. Pretty ******* sad. Naturally, we're against civilization. We're against any kind of power, any kind of political power. We're anti fascists. But these sentences do arise and. I think that really brings out the importance of the critique and the importance of really expanding it and covering all these other grounds and covering all these other periods and covering all these things that I suppose hadn't been as articulated, but I guess we had just taken it for granted. Being an anarchist presumed a number of things you can't. You can't do that anymore. The far right, the alt right, have discovered anarcho capitalism and they national anarchism. And they have made those aspects of anarchism, which were very, very minor into, you know, kind of a 4 Chan. Reddit breeding ground for YouTube grifters and things like that. There are aspects of anarchism in in all regards, but even particularly in ego, not not green anarchism. But you know, eco fascist ideas and national anarchism. To kind of bond and to kind of create this, this ridiculous sense of traditionalism that is at the core of the all right. Inclusions and I always think too and I think I brought up and yeah I did bring it up in the book recommendations. I always think of John Grey's al Qaeda and what it means to be modern, which I think is really good and really important. All these traditionalist kind of arguments that arise in a technological setting, they always kind of want to play up this idea of. You know, authentic and al Qaeda and ISIS were, of course, very, very strong proponents of this. But you see this amongst Western chauvinist fascists that are coming now. And you can. Look at the proud boys. We can look at wolves of Vinland and groups like that, but. Even even Neo Nazis use a lot of these kind of arguments, and one example would be Julius Evola, and talking about the revolt against. The modern world. they play on these traditionalist ideas and then just the disgusting side of it is just turning it back onto this narrative of progress of this narrative, of social evolution. Which creates kind of like a mythic past of saying This is why. We deserve to be the powerful ones in this situation. This is how we rose to power. And this is our sense of home and our sense of homeland. And I mean it it it's kind of dripping with crazy. I'm doing very, very, very topical kind of overview of any of that at best right now but. It’s kind of hard to like, just mention it without even getting into some of the details because the ideas these people have are ******* nuts. It's crazy like white supremacist, western chauvinist. Fantasies about. Conquest within the Americas, and you can get to South Africa and Australia. All these places movements exist. There's just. It's crazy. It's very, very crazy. But yeah, it's based on this merger of kind of like a traditionalist ethos and then a very technological imperative and technological impulse. And reading through Shane Burley's fascism today, what it is and how to. End it talking with Shane a good bit as well. And I like with this book. He he points out he's talking about the all right. He's talking about newer forms of fascism and they rely more on that kind of narrative. And it's, you know, they're the more pathetic and it. Doesn't necessarily even need a lot of organization, but technology really fills in the gaps. For a lot of the ideology that would otherwise have to exist for fascist movements and. Fascist movements today aren't necessarily going to be different from fascist movements before, not because they don't. They want to be different, but because of the nature of how power lies and how they're going to get. These kinds of messages across. Now and. All that but. It you know. It it does get mentioned in this book and I think it's a really important point. Is it just comes down to technology and adapting to social media and adapting to this always on kind of culture of just knee jerk reactionism. And any kind of looking at any kind of assertion. Against domination or any kind of assertion. Systemic violence or systemic inequality as being this ground of being like, oh, you're just, you know, you're the snowflake or whatever and. Whatever, I don't have to listen to you. I've earned my place in society and I don't see that my privilege is the thing, and I'm honestly upset about the fact that it isn't so here. We're going to assert ourselves and always getting to play the victim to build up fascist movements for people who already have positions of power or already have, you know. Relative social equality or I'm sorry, not equality, but it's social, social equity and social power within the society, which is what happens with. White people in America, it's white privilege. So I've been. Getting more questions about that as well, and I've been talking about it a little bit and I don't know if maybe it just doesn't get voice enough. But I mean. You know, speaking for areas of wild resistance, speaking for myself, speaking for John. Naturally, Randy Fascists, we're extremely anti racist. We don't want anything to do with any of these systems that civilization is created and any of these systems of classification. That system that civilization has created, I mean down to the title of my old journal, species Trader like, even the idea of trying to distinguish humans as a. Totally separate entity and giving us the power to dictate the layering and the categorization of the rest of the world is to me insane on a living planet. Obviously we've gotten these positions. It’s a huge. Part of the problem and how we. Got here and how we get. Out of this situation. But yeah, I mean. there’s no part. There's no. Role. There's nothing within. These critiques that give really any room. For this kind of racist, nationalist, xenophobic, any any of this ********, any of this nonsense. So we have nothing to do with it, but I don't know. I don't know if people were thinking for some reason. That meant we just don't care about it. We just weren't dealing with it enough. Or maybe that left the door open for people to think. Maybe we'd be less sympathetic to critique of whiteness, strategic critiques of toxic, toxic, toxic masculinity, or anything like it. But that is definitely not the case, and I feel like. That's come up more. Recently than it has in quite a while, people just genuinely wondering like. Well, do I think that whiteness is an issue when you're comparing with civilization? So the thing that naturally comes to mind is Ted Kaczynski, ship of Fools, which is his take on, you know, very old kind of story. And the idea of. All these people on a ship, and they're all arguing about what's the most important thing, what's the most imminent? Threat not seeing the icebergs and they're going to crash in that and die because they're too busy bickering. And his idea, and I mean this is this is a dogmatic tool, it’s used by many people. It's used in many situations and anybody can kind of play this game. It's like if you're not looking at. The one biggest issue then? What's going to happen, and the important thing to remember about Ted and it's it still drives me nuts that Ted continues to gain social currency and being used as a meme being used as an icon being mean. It uses like an ideology and I don't know if it's. Kind of some edgy **** or something like that. I know that’s how the whole meme thing works. I mean, Ted sucks he. Was there's good things? About Ted and there's really bad things about Ted and increasingly over time, there's a lot more bad. Things about Ted. And I think the ship fools kind of stuff is exactly the problem. And the thing to. Remember about Kaczynski? That I think gets overlooked a lot because he makes such a ******* big deal about who he's calling a leftist. It's, you know, it's just like a diversion kind of technique. It's just kind of like a tool of negation. And it keeps him from realizing that Ted is thoroughly A leftist. What he sees as his target is a little bit different than what most leftist which which is just technology, but he wants a revolution against technology. He quotes Mao all the time. His stuff like ship of fools and he had some. Other **** too. But he had sent it to me before. I didn't print it. It was like a with Earth. First it existed 50 years ago and it was like he he does these little stories. I mean, he's he's a ******* awful writer. I'm sorry. Ted is a pathetic writer, but he. These stories about like a bunch of Earth firsters doing lockdowns during World War 2 instead of fighting the Nazis and boom, the Nazis just take over. It's almost identical to ship of fools down to, like, pathetic dialogue, and really, you know, borderline kind of racist names and tropes being involved in it. But the idea? Is always kind of going to be this. This thing is ideally presented, which is just like, well, if you're not looking at technology, then you're just kind of everything go by. That's the basis for his whole ******** the truth about primitive life thing that he put out. It was to try and say that Erica, primitive, misrepresent, or need to misrepresent a hunter gatherer life or life without. In a particularly leftist manner. Which is just I'm I'm I'm trying to articulate what he actually says. I don't believe any of it. It's kind of ridiculous. But his whole idea was that if we we need to present it to that to get people motivated and we're just distracting from everything else, we're just distracting from the issue of technology. In doing so. So that's a real crime. So he wants to try and deflate it. And of course, if the ways he does that is, you know, quite often lying misrepresentation, misuse sources or just. You know not understanding the impacts of colonialism, which is going to happen if you think that trying to understand colonialism is going to keep you from a Maoist kind of revolution against technology. So he's got. These really ideological. Tropes that he can never seem to get past and you know, I see people sometimes talk about the USA ship of fools. Well, that's where Ted really laid it out. That's where Ted really nailed. You it's like. It's a ******* story. Like how much credit can you really give it and how much? How much credence does it really hold if you create a situation? I'm not going to give you credit for how. You think you've. Solved it and also. You know, I'm going to read a few lines, right? Just so people can understand. How much this sucks and how questionable Ted can be whatever he's trying to create these stories. So this is from ship fools. This is not me. And it is awful. And I'm going and it says this ridiculous things. But it goes. To show it's like Ted was a person who dropped out his culture in the 60s. Yeah, he just didn't evolve in a lot of ways. He didn't go with it. He didn't grow with it. He didn't. Understand any of the movements that came afterwards. All those nuances just totally gone, so this is a bit from ship of fools. Just so you know people. Can realize this is. Awful people were referencing it as though it's great. All right.

OK.

I have no reason to complain that anybody said an American Indian sailor. If the pale faces hadn't robbed me of my ancestral lands, I wouldn't even be on the ship here among the icebergs and Arctic winds, I would just be paddling a canoe on a nice, Placid lake. I deserve compensation at the very least, the caption should let me run a crap game so I can make some money. The person spoke up yesterday. The first mate called me a fruit just because I suck *****. I have the right to suck ***** without being called names for. So that’s really all I need to read. I'm just kind of ******* pathetic and. I mean every single way, tone deaf and ridiculous. But yeah, I mean like this is This is why like when people were talking about. That it's like, oh, he's. The unabomber? You know, injured 26. People were whatever he killed three or four and. There's something to it. It's like, you know, there’s something. To everybody, but it doesn't mean. You give credit for it forever. It doesn't mean that you need to give them space or make space for them, or just imagine because they created this an area that was horribly, atrociously written. That you need to give credit to that critique or to give it space. And in the case of Ted, in the case of a lot of the **** that just isn't the case, but I bring this up and I I'm more wary of it because it is this. This this kind of. Wedge Point becomes the way in which eco fascists tend to kind of creep in as this kind of reactionism to what is perceived as you know. Leftist bickering or something like that, and kind of making this call to say that you should be pretty singularly focused on one particular issue. And so if we're not looking at civilization, if we're not looking at technology. Or what people would perceive as civilization of technology. Then we're just wasting our time. I mean, that's ridiculous. And one is when part of that is like, you know, technology is is a crucial driver of civilization. I mean, indisputably, if we're talking about taking on civilization, we're talking about attacking civilization. We're talking about the grid, we're talking about the systems of power and the means of distribution of power and just maintenance and everything about civilization comes down to technology. So yes, technology is a target and that's the point of agreement that I had with Ted, but this idea. That means you need to focus solely on technology, and you can't talk about any other issues. Is ******* absurd. And that's the thing about civilization is. Is a totality by nature. It is all-encompassing and just enveloping of every aspect of your life, because that's how domestication needs to be. And I am a culture materialist. I do believe that, you know, looking at technology, looking at material circumstances and looking at the flow of power and the ecology of States and the ecologies. Is it going to be how you undermine? Them, but those narratives really do matter. Those narratives are really important to the persistence and maintenance of power and how they all work. So the idea that we're not going to look at those narratives and not look at the way that civilization functions and not look at the way that it impacts it, aside from just saying, OK, civilization is. Destroying the earth. That's that. So we need to target technology. We need to undo and unpack so much about what it means to be human. So much about what it means to exist in this world that is just constantly at the precipice of total destruction, a point where ecologists feel more comfortable talking about the potential or the likelihood. Of human extinction instead of. Realizing that we could do something beyond the political realm or political scale to take on civilization. But at no point is it contradictory. At no point is it cheapening or weakening anything about the critique or the momentum against civilization. To say, we need to understand how it exists and how it functions in every single regard. And that's something that, you know, I think that's something that Eric Prism has always done. But again, it's something that. We we have been building on existing critiques from other anarchists and from other. You know, I mean. From the ultra left from the post, left from leftism that had already existed. I mean, there was no, there was no question about it, whether or not we agreed with with means and ends in terms of what anybody on the. Political spectrum was going to say or do. About systemic inequality or systemic destruction. But it doesn't mean that those critiques just go away. That's all part of it. For against civilization, we're. Against all of. It against capitalism. We're against feudalism. We're against agriculture. All of these things get wrapped up into it, and it's extremely important. Especially for arguing, especially for talking to people about the consequences of civilization, to really be able to articulate. And expand upon. All of these different aspects it's I mean this is. This is the center of my work. This is the center of everything that I do. It's, you know, it's very clear. What civilization is doing to this planet? It's very clear how technology drives that. What is less clear is all the ways that domestication of the domestication process has to creep in and undermine how we function in this world, and how we see this world and how we see ourselves within this world. And that, to me is extremely important be uncovering. That's why I'm making such a focus. That's why I think it's. It's so absolutely vital. We have impacts on such an elemental level. With this world and you can think about stuff is as crazy as the fact that sharks had changed their routes, that they had migrated, and the routes that they had traveled along the Atlantic slave trade because the ships, through so many people overboard, so many bodies went overboard that they could eat. And you see the same. Kind of thing about the relationship of how. Predators in Africa had changed the diet or had started to scavenge and hunt humans. Because all these endemic civil wars and started to leave a lot of bodies behind and the building of fences just totally shifted animal migrations and human migrations and reduce the sheer mass and the sheer. Quantity of animals by such a significant number and then created this political crisis that resulted in a lot of human bodies being left behind. That behaviors have changed. And once again, you can see with rising ocean temperatures on on virtually every single coast, the locations of sharks and whales are changing, and that's why you're seeing more, more shark attacks in some areas. You're seeing more whale die offs than others. They're having to move to follow. You know the fish that they were hunter the other animals. That they might hunt. or just to get out of certain waters and get into areas where. We're feeding becomes possible again, and it means that. A lot of things that hadn't been. Dealt with there. A lot of things that hadn't been fully understood in terms of how these animals move and how they, you know how commerce ships and how Navy ships were impacting their lives. Was going to come into. Account and that has resulted in. Even more die off. So we're just just constantly creating these catastrophic trophic cascade. Seeds of impact and it happens within our lives. It happens within the wild world. It happens within every aspect, ecologically, sociologically, psychologically. Every single aspect of our lives is being shifted constantly by domestication. That means we have to understand those patterns. It means that having a critique of civilization and having a critique of understanding where power is doesn't change the fact that each one of these systems in each one of the forms of civilization currently takes or has to. We can. It’s not like rendering anything these things invalid. It just means that we're seeing how these patterns shift and we're going to be able to understand better and predict how to deal with these patterns by looking at the entire picture instead of just by focusing on one point or another. So instead of just looking at capitalism, you know, how did feudalism? How did Communism work? How did socialism work? How did all these different productionised empires? Exists and what is the core of how they were able to make it at all because. Every civilization, every every one of these things is constantly fighting against. Our human nature is constantly fighting against what it means for us to be a social animal, of functioning being in this world and the need for Community and the need for wild community and the need for taking part in your subsistence. And just all of these things. Are are persistent needs that we have and the only way this works is by forcing us into a different situation or by convincing us that we need to be buying into this entire mythos. Buying into this entire narrative, buying into this entire lifestyle that we're being sold. And so that's why all these different diversions exist, and that's why all these different. These tiers of hierarchy exist because that's how you get people going. Is your manager. You know, is it going to relate to your position at work? It's the exact same thing across the board. It's like the entire idea of white privilege and. Things like that, you know, I mean, there's all kinds of people come out especially it's been. It's been really. Really problematic in the rewilding community in particular. You know, it becomes this kind of self. Defense mechanism, I think. Where people just straight up deny white white supremacy, they straight up, deny white privilege and it's easy for white people to do that. And I'm speaking as a white person. You know, we are supposed to be the benefactors of these systems that have been evolving for a long time to create this kind of class cast tiered hierarchy that exists within civilization so that the people who are supposed to benefit from the system never actually have to see the consequences or deal with the repercussions of what it takes to maintain that. Order what it takes to maintain that system. So of course we're going to deny it. Of course. Of course we. Are that's. That's how it always works. We're not going to see it because for the most part we just don't have to deal with it in the same way. It doesn't mean that life is always great or grand. Or easy, but it just means that systemically speaking or. You have certain privileges or certain ways out and you know we see that all the time. So that's becoming more important to focus on because that's, you know the core of how these all rate far right groups and fascist groups and proto fascist groups are really taking the rise. They're using technology to just build this defensive idea based off of identity and based off of identity politics and things like that, and just use. Fear to make it look like strength. And that's what Civilizers have always done. This is a persistent theme throughout the history of civilization. Very weak. Groups of people trying to present themselves as strong to control other people. And that's, you know, the history of civilization and history of civilization, particularly in Americas, has a lot of this, like, you know, the European White mind kind of creating and selling the seeds for its own, its own threats and its own potential demise. And if you look in the Americas, you. Know you. You look at all. These different places that were being colonized. You know it it hadn't been articulated at the time, necessarily as white supremacy, although effectively, is exactly what it was. But you know, just taking these situations where you're you're taking a very small group of white people. And throwing them in the lands of people who are typically not white and then saying you're going to colonize them. And then you look at the case. The Americas in general, like during the Atlantic slave trade, it was 3 Africans. Every European being brought over here just to get this massive exodus of people to clear and work this land. Requires a great deal of ******* slavery, and that's just that's just the foundation of the system. But it's another way of trying to. The people in power, the white people and the Europeans in this really vigilant, fearful position of they're always going to come from it was like, well, of course, if you create the system, if you create this situation, yet they're going to be repercussions for it. People are not going to just sit there and take it, and we've gotten to a state of society. Where for the most part we are in the first world, just kind of sitting and taking it. We've just gotten used to that. And technology has made that easier and easier. But that that. Needs to be pointed out that needs to be drawn out, that needs to be understood and contextualized. All the things that we are trained not to see are the things we need to be seeing. That applies to every single aspect of civilization, so I just. Think it's important? To keep this in mind to this, anytime you get presented with people being like, it's this ship of fools kind of situation where we're all or nothing. If we're not focused solely on technology, then we're just, we're we're headed right for the iceberg. We're ******* heading for the iceberg anyways. that’s the direction this is going. But if you don't understand why we're not seeing the iceberg. Then yeah, I mean. All all the reason the world we're going to hit and the collapse of civilization before. You know, there’s a number of ways that things go down if we're going to say there's a historical precedent, which there is for how collapse moves forward and how collapse happens. This is part of it. This understanding of, like you know, social awakening, social risings and revolt. You know, we're we're in unchartered territory whenever it comes to this massive climate change. It's not that it's never happened before and I think Carl's been had a really good point. I really like how I put it. Is like, you know, the Earth has existed at this level of carbon emissions before, but civilizations have never. Never existed in those times, and they're they're just not going to. But you know, in terms of forced migration. Because of agricultural failure, because of climate change, because of rising sea levels, because of food shortages, because of geopolitics offsetting and off shifting entire populations. We're going to. Keep coming up against these issues and it's going to keep creating this massive tension. And we can't just look at that stuff and act like it's just some diversion and act like child detention. Is something new or that it's going to be a problem that solves? Itself or a. Problem that's going to be voted. The way this is what a collapsing civilization looks like. It looks like an amplification of every single method of inequality and an equal distribution of anything that's going to maintain power. That's going to maintain the idea, or the illusion that there is control. And is going to do that in this continue to do that in this, this very tiered system where you just have to keep convincing the people who have some degree of social power or social stability into thinking that everybody else is *******. Easy and they're just out to get. Your stuff. So that continues to be an issue and that's really the baseline of this proto fascist movement, this fascist movement that's that has been on the rise. And it is based entirely off of fear. It's based entirely off of the idea that, you know, if you're a white person, particularly a white male, like people are coming for. Your power. They're coming for you. I wish that was true, but I just you know, this is it’s just a story that's being told. It's a story that's always been told, and the more we understand about the part this plays and the part that we have in the in the world around us, in the history of civilization. The easier it's going to be to target and undermine this narrative and its functions in every single regard, and I think that's extremely important so. You know, when it comes to ship fool's analogy. Just story. It's not even a good story. And yeah, I mean there's. That's the kind of thing about it, I'll. Go or you can kind of just. Make it work, but it doesn't mean that it's going. To be true. And there's nothing about whatever Ted's talking about that. You know he he's. Spending his time writing about this stuff, he's spending his time talking about Archer previous their their idealism. OK, so so then what what where does that lead you or what does that, what does that do? How's that different than? Actually taking the time to do the actual research and find out what's really going on or finding out about alcoholism, intergenerational trauma work, and how they function and how the distancing that we have in our minds between ourselves and all other social animals. How all these things and their play and work together? And how this maintains civilization? So yeah. All told, there's going to be more that's coming out of these things, but it's just. Something that I felt the need to. And for whatever reason, it's been coming up more and more. To me personally, people asking these kind of questions. But yeah, no, there's nothing about being against civilization and seeing this very massive target. That means that everything that's underneath that umbrella, everything that's underneath. Massive issue, that massive situation. Is less valid than the entire thing in itself. You cannot split these things out. It's like technology. You can't take the good and bad it doesn't. Work that way. These are all aspects of civilization. These are all aspects of understanding how domestication works. The easy answer to a common question I've been getting lately is. Do these things matter? Do I see white privileges issue? Do I? See colonialism as an issue. **** yeah, I do. Are huge issues. This is. Vital to understanding how civilization functions and vital, hopefully to completely undermining and attacking it. So that's where that's at. And that's one of those things that will be covered up or when it comes to or if it comes down to having a primer FAQ and like, I'll be expanding on that more, but. Just had to get it. Out there in the meantime. Tons of ******* awful writer, so there's much better books out there if you're looking for things to read. So that's kind of wrap that up for this episode. Just a reminder, the website for all past episodes and all the information about the podcast, everything else is at primalanarchy.org my personal web page is kevintucker.org information about my books. Is on there wild resistance.org is the journal and the next issue focuses on decolonization and anti civilization. The deadline for that is September 1st, so it is getting. Black and Green press.org their information about the books. BlackBerry review.org is where all the stores are, but. If you go to any of those pages, then all the other ones are linked from itsoprimary.org. Kevintucker.org are pretty good starting points. You can always e-mail me black and green review. I'm sorry, blackandgreenpress@gmail.com. That's blackandgreenpress@gmail.com. And add those websites as well, particularly theprimary.org. There's information on how to support the podcast, so we have a pretty monumental debt load right now for black marine in general. So any help with that is greatly appreciated. Patreon, Venmo, PayPal. All those things are options as far as helping out and yeah, so I should have some some news and some information on the 2nd edition of Long synarchy very very soon. Here and yeah, I'll do my best to try and get on some more podcasts as well. I'm going to do some a little bit different though. This time I'm going to have some music in the end, had a recent thread about anti synth music and things like that, so I'm going to start out. I'm going to test it out. I don't know. We'll see. Yeah, it goes. This first track that I'm going to put on here is going to be the very end, so if you don't like it, you know, listen. And it's my friends band Burning empires. It's members of Misery Signals 7, angels 7 plagues and Andy Hurley on drums. Very anti sove. So yeah, this track is from hairs of the soil and it is called emerging primal, so I'm going to. Let that take it off now, and also just mention that primality podcast is a part. Of the channel 0. Network Anarchist podcast Channel 0 on almost all like social media and everything like that and you will find information all right until next time. Thank you.