She Grew Up Next To the FBI's Most Wanted Man & Had No Clue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP2OUtQCUgM

Intro: Lights out, everybody.

Josh: What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Lights Out. I'm your host, Josh. I'm joined in the studio by my co-host Austin beside me today.

Austin: Hey man. Yeah, we're cozy over here.

Josh: And our producer Danny, who's back over there as usual. Well, but you're probably wondering why we're sitting so close to each other.

Austin: It's because we like each other.

Josh: Well, we were professed or loved to each other last week, so we thought it was only fitting to sit side by side from here on. Out.

Austin: Sorry, Kendall.

Josh: But no, for what's really cool about today's episode is that we have a guest. Yes, we have our first guest in a long, long time here on lights out, and I think you're going to really enjoy today's episode as we're going to have a very interesting deep dive conversation. Action on the man that we we spoke about last week, Ted Kaczynski, but what makes this conversation truly unique is we are going to be talking to somebody who actually lived next door to the man himself, the Unabomber. And for 16 years, she lived there with her family. And she's going to give us the inside look at what that was like and how that affected her family. And today we are very excited to announce that Jamie Gehring. Is here.

Jamie: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Josh: We are so thrilled to have you on the show and dive into your book, madman in the woods, which amazing. By the way, I think you know your first book. Right.

Jamie: My first book, yes.

Josh: And it there's so much more that I think people need to know about this. Worrying about this case and also about what your family went through. So we're going to get into all of that today, which I'm very excited about. And I just want to say I'm sorry if my voice sounds. A little raspy, I was a little sick this weekend, but I was like, I am not missing this interview for the world. So. I'm going to try to keep my mouth shut today and let Jamie. Yeah, finally. Right. We're all like it's about time, but let's just dive right into.

Austin: Thank God.

Josh: Who is Jamie gang and? And maybe give us a little background information and kind of take us back to where this all began for.

Jamie: You absolutely. So I, as you mentioned, grew up in Lincoln Mt and in a quaint little log cabin outside of town about four miles. Like the most picturesque. Childhood. You can imagine just surrounded by towering ponderosa pine trees, rambling streams, isolated mountain lakes, and truly a beautiful childhood and.

Unknown speaker: It's.

Jamie: That definitely came abruptly to a stop when we realized at the age of 16 that our neighbor, Ted Kaczynski, was in fact the Unabomber. And of course, at the time, that was very pivotal for me and. Really changed the way I looked at the world and I knew that it impacted me so much that one day I wanted to write a book about this. I wasn't sure what that would look like or what that would entail, but years later, when I was in a position in my life where I could, I was a mother. My children were a little bit older. I had the time to truly spend on researching this beyond what I experienced. I I wrote a book and it ended up being what's called a braided memoir, which is my own experience essentially braided with. With Ted's life not only Ted's life, the the people that he affected around him, his own family members, what shaped him? Even I went as far as going to the FBI to get their take on this person outside of my own experience.

Josh: Yeah, that's. I mean, well put, I mean that's I can't imagine how difficult it must have been to not only remember all the things that you went through, but then interweave those with all of this other information that you're getting from all. I mean, the number of names involved with this case is just. Mind blowing? I mean, it was hard to even keep track of it in our episode last week to try to. You know, figure out, I mean your family. Let's, let's talk about your family. And because I think sometimes it was a little confusing to understand. You know, your father, who he was married to in kind of your family dynamics. Well, you kind of walk us through what your family looked like during that time.

Jamie: Yes. So I was born in 1980 and my mother and father lived together in, again, a home that they built in Lincoln, Mt. And I was around 3 when my parents separated. My mom moved to Helena, Mt, a close town, and my father butchering. He did remarry and he married a woman named Wendy, who is my stepmother, and him and Wendy lived there for many, many years and were together at the time of Ted's arrest.

Austin: And and then you had a half sister, correct?

Jamie: Yes. So they did have three children. My sister Tessa, and. My little brother Robbie and sister Rhianne. So I got to be a big sister finally.

Josh: What age were you when? Ted purchased property from your father.

Jamie: So Ted purchased property from my grandfather before I was born and my I come from a family of ranchers, generations of ranchers, cattle ranchers who actually still work cattle.

Austin: OK.

Jamie: And our. Current Day Ranch ranch folks and. It was 1971 when my grandfather decided to sell off a portion of his 8000 acre ranch. And at that time it was, you know, just a very small portion. It was 1.4 acres and it was on the outskirts of his ranching operation. He didn't have much need for it. It was kind of a dark, very timbered piece of property. And at that time, Ted Kaczynski was living in Montana with his brother David. He had recently left his job as a professor at Berkeley and saw the listing and decided to purchase this property with the help of his brother. David Kaczynski. And really, our lives were forever changed with the the sighting of that deed over to David and Ted because. David was not aware of this, of course, but Ted's motives were clear to him, even at that time in the 70s, when he moved to that little isolated piece of property in Lincoln Mt, I talk a lot in my book about how calculated, how methodical. Ted Kaczynski was this was just one more example of that. Because where he chose to go, he knew that he would be able to. Carry out his. Acts of terrorism. In. A very secure way because he knew he could blend in with the community with the type of lifestyle there and. Obviously that worked because he went undetected for 17 years.

Josh: I think that's such a mind blowing thing to think of, especially in today's age where it's much. Harder. I feel like to. Do that like you had. The area that you grew up in. Obviously it's rural, but you're not hundred 200 miles away from civilization. You're you're still can drive in the town a few miles. Ted can ride his bike into town. So. It's interesting because if you look at Ted as a person, he really struggles on the social side of things, but yet he's able to kind of move to this new location, assimilate himself into the community somewhat. Obviously, he's a hermit, keeps himself but. Was there, you know, like? Everybody kind of knows each other, right? There's this, you know, everybody knows everybody. Did did your dad remember? Like what anybody said when he bought the property? Or was there any, like, initial impressions of Ted that he ever shared?

Unknown speaker: So there was.

Jamie: Another neighbor that delivered the news to my own father that Ted had moved in to the property, and at that time. He hadn't even started building his cabin yet. He was essentially camping on the property as he spent time there and and built the. Happen, but the initial impressions of Ted when he first arrived to Lincoln were that he was a bit shy, a bit, a bit odd, but really nothing that was too alarming. And at that time too. He did look. Much more like the Berkeley professor, he was more clean cut. He was wearing, you know, boots that didn't have massive holes in them and regular clothing. And so he was able to to fit in as just a regular neighbor.

Josh: Right. So your community was, would you say, welcoming to him because sometimes you hear of small towns and even places in Montana and maybe it's just Hollywood with, like the Yellowstone show or it's like anybody that moves in, you know, from California to Montana, they're like, ah, we don't. Want you here. So I'm curious, was there any of that sediment there like with people? Like, oh, who's? This Cal, you know, who's this guy coming in?

Jamie: I don't, I don't think so. And that's mostly because he was so reclusive. If he was from California and, you know, trying to join the Chamber of Commerce and change the.

Josh: Right.

Jamie: Law and you know.

Austin: Yeah, yeah.

Jamie: Things like that, I think he definitely would have been received very differently. But. You know, just to paint the picture a little bit more, this community is only about 1000 people. It's very small. We have one grocery store, 1 gas station at the time at about 7 bars, but that's 7 bars, 7 churches, one grocery store a.

Josh: Wow, that's small. Very important one for each day.

Jamie: Flashing yellow light through town. I mean, you're not even stopping at. A stop light. Going through highway and Hwy. 200 straight through the town of Lincoln. It's very small, it is very connected as a community. You know, if if somebody is somebody has a family there and one of their children is sick and they need some medical assistance, the community comes together, cuts firewood, has fundraisers. And so they really do support each other. And welcome each other, but they also provide the space for people who need it. And so at the time that Ted moved there. Actually, there were quite a few Vietnam Veterans that had moved to the area that, you know, lived a little more reclusive lifestyle. But the community welcomed him and knew that they also needed their own space. And so that was just kind of the culture. And. Again, it was a choice Ted made. That was very methodical.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, what better place to go in the middle of?

Austin: Montana. Yeah. Seriously. And I.

Josh: You know.

Austin: You say he's, you know, he's very unsuspecting and he kind of fits in to some degree. But do you remember, I mean hindsight's always 2020, but do you? Remember. From what I remember from your book, it's Wendy was maybe the first one to notice. There was something, maybe a little bit more alarming, not necessarily like this is a domestic terrorist, but. There's something a bit off. More so than the other people around town, do you remember that at all, or do you do you? Is was Wendy the first one to really bring that up?

Jamie: Yes, I think there were. Multiple people that thought that Ted was just a little bit off a little bit different. But Wendy was the 1st in my experience. To really find Ted to be abrasive and their relationship did not get off to a good start for one, Wendy is a very opinionated woman. She really. Doesn't take any **** from anyone, and so and she was pretty young at the time when she moved to Lincoln. She's in her mid 20s.

Unknown speaker: Yeah, yeah.

Jamie: And she came from the city. And so she's really enjoying this rural environment and being 4 miles out of town and not being able to even, you know, see your neighbor because you're so surrounded by trees and nature. However, she started to feel in her own home. Watched. And. She was being interrupted a lot by Ted coming over to ask what time it was, what day it was. She found it all very annoying and off putting and. Finally, she stood up to him one day when he came to the door, he knocks on the door just as usual and says, you know what time is it? What day is it? And Wendy said it's time to buy a ******* watch. And she had had it. And so talking about that story now.

Unknown speaker: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Jamie: It is terrifying that she said that to this man that we now know was maiming and killing right next door. But that was how their relationship started and it really was how it continued through the years until Ted's arrest.

Austin: Right. Wow, I find it fascinating that it's always the women in these stories with Ted. It's like the person who kind of outed him at the end of the day was Linda, who to fill people in. Linda was David Kaczynski's wife. David Kaczynski is Ted's brother. And now I find it fascinating that Wendy. Your stepmother, uh, you know, didn't take any **** from Ted and it's like these strong, powerful kind of smart, educated women. And Ted couldn't he did not have a good relationship with women as we know. And I just thought, I don't know, I find that fascinating that it's these women who are. Confronting him and kind of taking him down a peg.

Jamie: Yeah, that is interesting. And it was a resounding theme in my life. And as a kid, I was kind of felt I I had that empathy of children and I felt bad for Ted. When Wendy would tell him off. When Ted came by, like, oh, he's just here to ask for the time.

Austin: Yeah.

Jamie: But of course, as a woman and as an adult now and a mother. I absolutely understand where she was coming from.

Austin: Yeah, having a creepy guy just come over to constantly ask the time with your children around? Yeah, I get it. What was?

Josh: Your first interaction with Ted, what's your earliest memory?

Jamie: So Ted did come to our house for dinner when my parents, my mom and my father were still married. And you know, they. They played pinochle together. Ted helped me as a baby. Of course I don't remember those things. Those I had to rely on the memory of my mom and stories from my dad for that. However, I was my first real memory of Ted. I was pretty young. I was around 4:00. And my parents were separated, so I was going back and forth. And so that's really how I timelined my memories. As many kids from divorced families now and so anyways, I was outside playing by myself as I did a lot in that environment. And. All of a sudden, as I'm playing outside with my cat, there is somebody on the mountain side with me, and as they approach I realize it's Ted and we called them Teddy. Especially in those early years, and I was excited to see him. I I do not remember. Being scared at the time I was. Actually ecstatic because he had brought me a gift that day and he had hand painted some rocks for me. Of course I. Played by myself a lot out there, I did have cousins, but they were about a mile away and so I was just excited to to see somebody and. It was. My first real memory of him, and of course looking back. Now I remember. His wild hair, his smell. He really did smell like he lived in the Wilds because he did. He didn't have running water. He didn't have electricity. In his cabin, and so he looked and smelled like a hermit would. As you can imagine. But my father always instilled in me, you know, to to treat people with kindness and be accepting. And so it wasn't very alarming because. He was that strange guy next door and. He was offering some some kindness to me. Of course, as the years went on, those interactions changed and maybe it was that I understood more of the world around me. Or maybe it was because he had changed so much, or most likely it was a combination of those two things. But those interactions didn't feel the same I felt. Something guttural I felt something was off with him as I got.

Austin: Older do you think those early interactions were genuine from him like he actually wanted this genuine neighborly connection?

Jamie: That's a tough question to answer because there is. Part of me that knows that he was craving. That interaction because while I was writing my book, I was reading his journal entries and when I say journal entries, it's literally just thousands of pieces of paper that Ted was writing. His innermost thoughts. What he ate, what he wanted, even he had his journal for his criminal activity. That was super.

Unknown speaker: Yet.

Jamie: But in those. Journal entries, especially from the 80s. So this is about the time I'm really little. He is talking about how lonely he is and. Just like how much sorrow he has and how he longs for a partner, for a family. And so I do think that at that time he was. Getting something from us from that, from that companionship being around a family holding a baby. Having you know the sharing and the intimacy of a meal shared in those things that he wasn't, that he wasn't getting on his own, and that he was missing. But I also at the same time think that part of it was his cover. Because if he was always in that cabin by himself. Knowing my father especially, he would have come to check on him. He would have. Tried to invite himself in and make sure everything was OK and so I think that there was. A A small percentage of participation that Ted knew that he had to give in order to be looked at as just that. That sort of normal neighbor.

Josh: Right. Yeah. Not to draw suspicion to himself. That's so interesting to think about that Ted is. I mean, here's this guy who is a genius, you know, on an IQ level and. He's it's such a multifaceted. Problem that he has, you know, he's trying to. Follow these philosophical ideas that he's he's. Creating and you know. He thinks that's his purpose in life. But yet there's the human side of him that's just longing for that connection, that relationship that he's never had. Do you think that? Part of why he bought that parcel land was because your family was there, do you think? He. Knew that you guys were there and what? Was going on. Or is that just that coincidence?

Jamie: No, I think that was a coincidence because. My father built the cabin with my mom after Ted and David had purchased that property. So. There wasn't. There wasn't a log cabin with a sweet young family living there when he bought the property. I think that, you know, he probably was frustrated to see us move in there, but then decided again. Because he is so calculated, what he had to do to. Maintain his. His isolation and be able to do what he needed to do and also you know, to fulfill a very small need in him which maybe he didn't even realize was. Part of the reason he was coming over.

Josh: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So he would come over and help out your family with housework and. Come over for dinner. What? What's you? Have any memories around that or any that your dad has shared?

Jamie: With you? Yeah. So definitely in the early 80s to even really the beginning of the 90s, Ted was coming over, was helping my father with projects around the house. And again, that was not out of just like the goodness of his heart, it was because Ted also needed things. Ted didn't have a vehicle, and he might. You know he. May need lumber to be hauled because he's building his. His out shed building or you know, something like that. And so he knew that he needed certain things from my. Dad. And so they definitely had kind of a barter relationship. And. It did. It did continue. You know, for years. But then, as Ted did isolate more, he wasn't. He wasn't at our house as often. He wasn't helping with projects. He did, however, come work for my dad, though at his sawmill for a day, basically. And so The thing is.

Josh: Wow.

Unknown speaker: Yeah.

Jamie: Knowing Ted's views, knowing how we felt about. Industry and the sawmill and the noise of the mill and everything, especially that we know now. It was shocking for. Need to put that together? That Ted did concede to go work for my dad to fund his bombing campaign.

Austin: Wow, when you put it like that, that's that's brutal. Did he know or did you guys know at the time how he felt about industry? Like when he came to work at the sawmill? Were you guys kind of aware of his very highly opinionated ideologies?

Jamie: No, he kept all of that very secret. Ted was always just on the surface with conversation, even if my folks asked him about where he went to school or where he's from, it was always a very brief. Answer. Order. And then the subject would be changed. He was very careful about the information that he shared about himself or his beliefs. However, there were times through the years where. Ted could no longer hide how he.

Unknown speaker: Felt.

Jamie: About certain topics, one being. There was an incident in which my father. Again, we're in the 80s, nineties and I have to say this because my father was a very responsible, respectful logger, Sawyer. But he did use weed spray. He didn't know the dangers of weed spray at that time. And Ted. And obviously had done more research on it and had a very strong opinion, not not to use such things. And so they got into a massive altercation. About that. And it was one of those times in which Ted could no longer hide his his anger. And it was my dad was a green beret, he. Was a very self-sufficient man's man out there with his sawmill and being from ranchers, but it scared him that that interaction with Ted just because of the look in his eyes, the way he was, his body was shaking his face was red. He could just see. That rage and that anger that he had didn't experience.

Unknown speaker: 4.

Jamie: And yeah, so there were definitely times in which Ted could no longer hide his own opinions, but it wasn't a regular occurrence.

Josh: Did your dad know that he had weapons?

Jamie: My dad did know that he had weapons that he had at least a rifle because they had talked about hunting.

Josh: What do you hunt on?

Jamie: So that was a definitely a discussion that my father had had with Ted. My dad did hunt. He would get his tags to go elk hunting, but he didn't like hunting on his own property. Because he was such a softie and he fed his deer and he fed his help. And so they were, you know, like pets, I guess in a way to him. So he liked to to hike out a bit to to do his hunting. And. He was worried that Ted was poaching and not getting his tags and poaching on his property, and so there were some conversations, especially early on, about one getting your tags to be legal. And two, you know, I'll show you the places to hunt, but it's not right here. In my backyard.

Josh: Yeah, that's a good point. Even think about that. To hunt legally, he would have had to go get licenses and tags for that and register and. So he probably was poaching then.

Jamie: Yes. And he was. Yeah. I mean, he's writing in his journals about killing Porcupine and grouse, but also coyotes. And I mean, it was definitely illegal what he was doing.

Josh: Illegally hunting. Yeah, you do. So that would be the way he'd stay self-sufficient, self-sustaining his hunting. And so he really tried to live that primitive lifestyle. The hunter gatherer off grid. No, no electricity, no plumbing. Where do you get his water from?

Jamie: So there was a little rambling Creek. Behind his cabin.

Josh: They have water rights though.

Jamie: That's a good question. You'd have to ask my my grandfather. So.

Josh: That's what that matters.

Austin: I don't know if he's if he's poaching, he probably doesn't care about water rights.

Jamie: Doesn't care. He's probably not too worried about it. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's what I always imagined when I was a kid. Is that that's where he took his baths. He didn't have running water, and he definitely.

Austin: He's bathing in there. Drinking.

Jamie: Smelled as though he didn't.

Josh: Where was his bathroom that he built himself a little out house. I think we were kind of debating.

Jamie: Yeah. About this. So he had. Yeah. Bucket a bucket on a pulley system.

Austin: Yeah. Should we have? A bucket. Oh, I'm getting your check.

Josh: Oh God.

Jamie: Yes.

Austin: So and and you were saying we were kind of talking about we were going through this photo album that you have and you pointed out the jacket and he would occasionally have to go into town. And yeah, I wonder that this guy who is so grimy doesn't have running water. You would say you would kind of present himself when he would go into town. Obviously, you would stick out. Kind of like a sore thumb. Or would you if you went into town? You kind of looked like he did and smelled like he did. Would you? Would people kind of accept that?

Jamie: So it depends on what town you're talking. About. So in Lincoln. Most of the residents knew of him right. They they knew Ted was the the hermit and lived off the land. And so when he looked rugged, it was very much accepted. Now he would get on a bus on a Greyhound bus and. Travel to deliver his bombs. And so he had to definitely change the way that he looked in order to do that, he would shave, he would wear a blazer. He definitely. And then when he came back. It was. Again, very calculated, he would stay in his cabin until the hair on his face grew back and he looked more like himself. We never once saw him with a clean shaven face. Wow.

Austin: Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. He was so calculated. You know, he probably thought about all that before ever going to town. If you're going to walk into the post office and you look the way you do, you smell the way you do. People are going to remember you. Right. So it kind of makes sense that Ted would think. Head and even though it was against his kind of natural self, so to speak, he would clean himself up just so people wouldn't remember him. Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah, he had to blend in.

Josh: So I know this is kind of a sore subject and obviously nobody likes to hear about animals being. Hurt or killed? But. Do you remember the time around when your dog, your your dogs, were killed and poisoned?

Jamie: So we had our family had one dog that was poisoned and it was in the 90s that he our dog started to get really sick. It was a long. Painful death, unfortunately, and the. Originally, the vets were trying to figure it out, do all sorts of blood work and they were like he must have gotten into something. And he did end up passing away, and they were able to say that it was strict 9. And so, as horrible as that was. At the time, there was nobody in my family that would have said Ohh, that was Ted Kaczynski. That was our neighbor. But. When I was writing my book, I was, you know, documenting all of our different interactions and putting myself back in these scenes from childhood. And I remembered so specifically every time Ted would walk by our sawmill or the house, or ride his bike by our dog, Wiley. Who was this sweet family pet? He was kind of a mutt, but he definitely had black lab in him. He was just the sweetest. Dog. When Ted was around, his hackles would rise. He would growl, he would chase him. It was really intimidating for Ted. And through this happened through the years. Then when our our dog had passed away, we discovered. That our neighbor was the Unabomber. Eyes. When I was doing my research found a letter from Ted Kaczynski that he had written after being apprehended. And in it. He admits to poisoning a dog that was sneaking into his garden at night. Then beyond that, when I was looking through the FBI evidence, there were. Strychnine oak pellets found in his cabin. So I think it was. Definitely it was retaliation in his mind because he was getting rid of this dog that had become a nuisance to him. Sneaking into his garden, but also. Was probably directed at us as well. Because we live so close. Because we were in each other's backyards. Essentially, he couldn't draw attention. By by harming us. But he could kill our dog.

Austin: Was this after the weed spray incident?

Jamie: UM, well, Wiley did pass after the weed spray incident, yeah.

Austin: Kind of interesting, just as another hypocrisy of Ted because, you know, he's screaming and having this altercation about the weed spray, yet he's willing to then go poison a dog. Almost seems like you're trying to protect nature and be natural about it, but then it just doesn't make sense for him. To do that, but that's just one of many, I guess.

Jamie: Yeah. And there were, there was another neighbor that lives about another mile from us that had incidents through the years of his dogs being poisoned when being stabbed and so. He definitely, after Ted's arrest, blamed Ted as well.

Josh: How far was your house in Ted's cabin like? I think that's hard to like. Read about like from your experience, like how quickly could you get to Ted's cabin if you?

Austin: Yeah.

Josh: Wanted to, as someone who grew up in.

Austin: The suburbs I'm like. The neighbor was like right there. So it is kind of hard to to visualize it.

Unknown speaker: Yes.

Jamie: So we were a quarter mile away and.

Josh: OK.

Jamie: Is the the the layout of it is your you you leave the town of Lincoln, Montana. The flashing stop light drive around 4 miles and then you turn off of this main road which was called Stemple Road. And then there was a long winding driveway and you could take a turn off. And go to Ted's house so you could keep going and arrive at our house. And so. There were a couple other neighbors out there as well, but pretty spread out and so, you know, Ted didn't have to interact with many people as as the years went on even.

Josh: Where was your guys's mailboxes at?

Jamie: Our mailboxes were out on the road on the main road. My father, though, especially while he was running his sawmill.

Josh: OK.

Jamie: And. Had a PO Box so we have to go to the post office to go check our mail.

Austin: OK.

Josh: Wow, OK.

Jamie: That Kaczynski's I mean, it's a pretty famous photograph that's out there, but Ted Kaczynski's mailbox was just right there on the main road with his name on it, which is always eerie to see.

Josh: Yeah. God, that's wild. So there wasn't any fences or anything between your property and his.

Jamie: No, I don't think really any or. Maybe that there was one neighbor that did have a fence that was pretty close to my father's sawmill, but they were very common out there. Unless you were trying to fence in your livestock, if you. Had cattle or. You goats or something like that, but otherwise there's such massive parcels of property that. There weren't a lot of fences and the way that Ted would get to our house, the most direct way was. Not on the main road, not on the driveway. There were a couple hills between our house and Ted's cabin, and there was a large rock quarry kind of in the middle of. That as well. And there were these old logging roads, and so you could take the old logging Rd. and then you might have to climb the hill for a bit and go slide down the. Rock quarry. And then basically, you were at Ted's.

Josh: OK, that that for some reason my mind. I'm like he could get binoculars and like see you. Watch you from this cabin or something.

Jamie: It's too, too mountainous and there's so many pine trees out there. I mean, it's one one reason that the FBI couldn't get a clear shot of Ted's cabin is because we're surrounded by such dense forest.

Unknown speaker: Right.

Jamie: That you couldn't. You couldn't see from place to place. But Ted was. Definitely outside of our home many times.

Josh: Yeah. What was that like? That's so. Creepy to think about.

Jamie: It it really is. And again now being a a, a woman and a mother, knowing how Wendy felt having him.

Josh: Yeah.

Jamie: Creeping around, basically looking through the windows, seeing if we were home. There is a. A movie that was made called Ted K and. There is a scene in it in which Ted is in our driveway and it's at night and he's I believe in the. Scene. He's got his rifle. And my parents are in what was the greenhouse of our cabin, which is just full length windows and Ted is standing there watching. And it was filmed in my childhood. Film. And watching that still is so terrifying to me, because who knows how many times Ted was out there, he would gather pieces of metal from my dad's old equipment. My dad had an older boat out there. You know what rural Montana looks like? A rural areas where like people do not get rid of things. They're they have their old combine out there, are they.

Josh: No, everybody's got a truck driver, yeah.

Jamie: Like they're like. Who knows what I'm gonna need to use this again? So my dad had an old boat, an old like Oldsmobile out there. Couple of other things. And so Ted would sift through. That machinery to find pieces of metal that would go untraced because he could bring them back to his cabin, melt them over his little pot belly stove into fragments and then put them in his bombs as shrapnel. So he was there for a purpose. But who knows what else he was doing out there?

Austin: Yeah. Did did your father or anybody in your family ever feel guilty over that? I know it's an unfair sense of guilt, but you know, knowing that he used that for trap or knowing that maybe you helped him build certain things or just fund him when he worked at the sawmill, as you mentioned earlier, did. Did your dad have a sense of guilt? Or anything.

Jamie: Absolutely. And you know, it was difficult because.

Austin: Ohh really?

Jamie: One, it's the culture, the community, that Western. Acceptance of you know, you might not be a traditional person, but we're still going to embrace you and accept you in our community. So you have that and then you also have my own dad who? Was so he just had the biggest heart. He would literally give you the shirt off of his back. He was so kind. He was so trusting. He believed in the good of people until he didn't anymore. And so with Ted, in those early years, he had no reason to.

Unknown speaker: The.

Jamie: Suspect that he was. This evil person. And. Looking back, of course, there were things that were alarming and. He would have done differently and I think that's probably. Why he felt. Such a need to help so much with the investigation and put himself at risk because he did have guilt about missing signs or maybe what he would have done differently.

Josh: Yeah, I can only imagine what that must have been like and also when, like, do you remember when you or maybe you're too young when? The bombing started happening, but did your dad ever, like, have the TV on and the news reports were playing? Do you remember that time at all?

Jamie: Yes, I do and. You know it was. Late 70s to 95 was Ted's last attack before his arrest, and so. He was always so prominent in the news. He wasn't on newspapers, but the Unabomber was on newspapers. And in the news and.

Austin: Yeah.

Jamie: Held the nation captive for so long. Young. But my dad, I do remember him talking about it and just feeling so removed from it like, Oh my gosh, this is. Such a horrible thing. But it's happening across the country like we're in this little isolated pocket and. Like, thank goodness, we are, you know, but. Obviously, looking back, we were right next to it.

Austin: Yeah, because it's so abstract. When you see it on TV and it's a faceless man, you know, you don't really think twice that it's your night. Just to backtrack a little bit in regards to the distance between your House and his, obviously I mean it's rural Montana. We knew that he hunted, he had rifles, so gunshots were probably fairly familiar, but. Was it ever confirmed he was detonating bombs, test driving bombs on his property, right? And I know he was trying to shield those noises with, like, a a minors doing dynamite and stuff like that, but. Were were there. Ever any noises on your property where maybe you or your family members or somebody maybe second guess those noises or something like that?

Jamie: Yeah, there, there were some through the years and. I was working with my dad in the lumber mill one day and I heard a. A noise that I. Just couldn't quite discern. Couldn't recognize. But it was loud. It didn't quite sound like gunshot, and so I told my dad just stop. Just, you know, try to listen. And so we're sitting there trying and it didn't happen again, but. It was something that I. Of course, won't forget now knowing the context of it. Knowing who my neighbor was. He wasn't testing those bombs on his parcel. He was hiking out in more remote places. And using the shield of the space and the trees around him to try to muffle. Those noises, but a lot of that evidence was found by the FBI after his arrest just walking the property with my dad and another neighbor out there, they found quite a few different areas where they were kind of like bunkers that Ted would test his bonds at.

Josh: God, that's crazy. Ah man. And to think somebody could have stumbled upon him. At any point in time.

Austin: And you imagine? Yeah, like the way he was, his disheveled hair. And just like someone blowing it. That's so terrifying.

Jamie: It's so scary. It is really scary and there was a a time when I was a teenager that I was on a walk and I was behind the house by the rock quarry kind of going towards his house, but I didn't plan on going to his his place that day I was just. Hiking along the the logging roads and him and I came around the corner at the same time and just almost collided. Good. And it was very close to the the time that he was arrested. So he was. Full Unabomber at that time, no longer that, that Berkeley professor you see in the late 70s, eighties, he's gone. His eyes are wide, his cheeks are, you know, hollow. His hair is everywhere he is. He looks frenzied. And at that time, I was terrified and. It was, of course, a combination of my age. I'm a teenager, I'm alone in the woods with a man, like all of that was scary, but then it was just him as well. And we both turn around and I start in a walk at first because I know he can see me walking back to the cabin. And then to to my cabin. I just start as soon as I know that he can't see me anymore. I'm running as fast as I can. I'm leaping over fallen logs and just running to get back to my house. And it was shortly after that that he was arrested. But I think about that. Like, what if I would have met him in a deeper area of the property? What if I came across him testing a bomb? Or it it could have been a completely different scenario. And so while that experience was startling.

Austin: Right, yeah.

Jamie: Just thinking about all the different possibilities is truly terrifying.

Josh: Did you ever think about? Like spying on him and like seeing what he was up to or maybe going and checking out his house or anything, yeah.

Austin: Man making the excuse. Oh, I was just. What days? What's the time of day doing the same thing to him? Yeah.

Unknown speaker: Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. What's the day? What's the time? I did so. I had a little Honda 90 motorcycle when I was a kid, and I also rode horses a lot. But on my little Honda 90, which was awesome by the way, it's bright yellow. It was pretty sick.

Austin: I was just going to ask you. About that, yeah.

Jamie: I was able to. Covers so much ground back there and all over our property, and I would take a lot of the old logging roads because. They weren't in any way like suitable for a vehicle, but you could drive your motorcycle on them. And I wasn't just like driving through fields, you know? And so there was a couple that went close to Ted's cabin, and I'm sure that that made him very angry.

Austin: Mm-hmm.

Josh: He didn't like people riding motorcycles.

Austin: Yeah, he's like, I don't. I don't like the noise of the motorcycle engines, but I can go blow up stuff and shoot my gun as much as I. Want right? Did you ever see Ted?

Josh: Smile or laugh.

Austin: Oh, that's a good question.

Josh: Do you have an ounce of joy in him?

Jamie: UM, no, I mean I can't say that I ever. Saw him. He he gave like the closest thing to a smile when he gave me my rocks when I was little. And, you know, he was at that time too. When you're speaking. To children and you're a grown up like you get down on the ground and there's like a a kind of.

Josh: Slight voice change.

Jamie: Yeah. And so he, he did exhibit that. But there was never a time where I remember him, like laughing at my dad's jokes or.

Unknown speaker: Wow.

Jamie: Even really smiling. So. So, no.

Josh: Because I'm trying to like picture what this family dinner must have. Like. And your dad sounds like an awesome person who likes to have a good time. Laid. Back very wholesome. And then you've got like, the polar opposite sitting at the table with you. And I'm just like, what was it? Just awkward the entire time? Or is there any, like, the dad's cracking jokes? Ted's just, like, man. Like, what? What we talk about?

Austin: Each record.

Jamie: My dad is super jovial like he was just full of character, full of personality, loved to tell stories, very animated and so he could fill the space, you know, like. I even in. There were multiple. Times where we would be driving back from, like the grocery store and we'd see Ted walking and we'd pull over. And pick him up. And. Ted was always. So awkward and you know, it was very clear he did not want to have a conversation. He was accepting the ride because maybe it was raining or he was tired, but there was no like sense of community in that vehicle. Still, my dad would like chat the whole time.

Austin: Just like talking to a wall. Basically, yeah.

Jamie: And. Yeah, exactly. So you would imagine it would be like, horrifically awkward, but my dad somehow made. It not be.

Austin: I know people like that. Those are good people because sometimes I don't know, sometimes I don't always want to talk. So sometimes it's nice just to sit back and let someone else take take control.

Jamie: Yeah, I agree. I'm like that too. But if I were Ted and never able to talk to anybody, I think I would take that opportunity.

Austin: Yeah, yeah.

Jamie: To at least. Like, have some semblance of a conversation.

Austin: True.

Josh: So there was a point in which Ted, which, by the way, I'm so sorry for my voice. I'm like, losing my voice right now. So I'm doing the best I can but. There was an incident where. Now it's like cracking. I'm starting to sound like Ted. I feel like he has a very peculiar voice.

Jamie: He does. He does.

Josh: By the way. Listening to the tapes of him, but there is a point at which he aimed a rifle at Wendy and your sister and.

Jamie: Uh-huh.

Josh: What was going on there like that? That's a very weird incident that could have. Took a turn for the worst.

Jamie: So this was again very close to Ted's arrest. This this time frame, and at the time. He was completely immersed day-to-day in his reign of domestic tariffs.

Josh: Yes.

Jamie: All he was doing in that cabin was writing about his ideologies, who he wanted to target next. Obviously, making testing bombs, that's what he was breathing. That was his life. And so. As you can imagine, as the years progressed and he's more and more immersed in this, this is all he's doing. All he's thinking. His behavior also started to visibly change. Even, you know, to us as his neighbors. That being said, there was one day in which he was out on his surrounding prop. Ready. My stepmother Wendy was seeding our property out there because there had been some logging done with draft horses and they had pulled these massive trees out through the property and the grass had died so. She was out there. Receding, taking care of the property and. Ted saw her and my little sister, who was around two at the time. And. She didn't know he was there. She could sense that there was something she felt there was something ominous. She felt as though she was being watched. She's in the forest in Montana, so she's thinking Mountain Lion or some sort of predator. She ends up scooping up my little sister, getting her in the truck and driving away. She didn't, really. Think much more of it because again, this is the lifestyle they live, right? Until after Ted's arrest in the journals, Ted had spoken of that day. And he had written in his journals that he was looking through his scope on his rifle. And going back and forth between my stepmother and my little sister, who is a toddler. My stepmother, my little sister. Watching them in the scope and contemplating killing them. And. The way he wrote it, something like. I could take the big ***** out, but then the little ***** would be left on the hill and trying to kind of decide how he could kill them and then decides finally that it's too close to home. But he also in that moment realized he could kill face to face. If he wanted to, it was number longer. This kind of faceless sending a bomb in the mail. Well. Which could be perceived as different. I suppose he could. In his mind, he knew that he could look at somebody and murder them.

Austin: That's almost it's almost crazier because. You're almost in danger because you're so close to this guy, but at the same time you're almost safer because he's too calculated. To do something like that and it just in a very strange way, it's almost like being right next to Ted Kaczynski almost saved you in a sense that might be the wrong word for it, but because he was so calculated, even though he knew he was capable of doing these things, he's like, no, the the police. To track me if I do something like this.

Jamie: Sometimes I think that and then other times. I I am faced with different like. For instance, here he is with. All he has on the line in in with his motives, with the crimes he's committing during his 17 years of domestic terror being the serial bomber or the serial killer. He's still. Vandalizing a cabin nearby. He's using an axe to cut down the door and destroying their snowmobiles and.

Unknown speaker: Right.

Austin: Yeah.

Jamie: With everything that he has again on the line for his own ideals, like what? He's his motives, what he's trying to. Do. He's willing to let his anger win and retaliate against this family that had been driving snowmobiles to close to his cabin and then there were so many instances where I would find a letter that he had written, written in complaint, like to the telephone company or to local legislation with his own name on it, making complaints. And there's just that part of me that. Realized some of this was such a game. To him it was almost like he was trying to get away with as much. He was trying to win, essentially with law enforcement and. And. He was willing to to risk a lot in order to win these little cat and mouse games as he saw. And then after Ted's arrest, there were. Wires that were found that were strung between trees like a round corners. That he put up. In case there was somebody riding a motorcycle around his property, it would essentially decapitate them if they were going fast enough and so yes, there is that. I guess sense of. Relief because we were so close. But then there was. There's also just the unknown of what could have gone differently because he was willing to take those risks.

#######

Austin: Right.

Josh: Yeah, it's kind of a double edged sword and it's like there's safety, but there's also chance of imminent danger. Yeah. What have you started like? Digging holes for some of these devices out in the woods and leaving them out there right there had been no way to. Trace it back. To him, yeah.

Austin: And clearly he was willing to go after the dog. So yeah.

Josh: So you really think there is a point? That Ted this became. About killing and not just furthering his ideologies and his message then.

Jamie: So his response to naming and not murdering people and then his celebration of when people did die by his hands. Didn't feel as though he was celebrating his ideology. He was celebrating his murders.

Unknown speaker: Mm-hmm.

Jamie: And that I think that speaks for itself.

Austin: You quoted you quoted Susan Moser, I believe is her name. Who was the widow of Thomas Moser who died? And I just want to pull this little quote because you brought this up in the book. I think you had a longer excerpt, but she said make this sentence as permanent for him as he has made ours Toms and the others, his so-called causes, are a smokescreen for his only objective to kill anything that is alive. So do you abide by that theory that it's just a smokescreen. At the end of the day.

Jamie: I do feel that way. I think that he definitely had. Ideologies that he wanted to share. I do think that there were, and even in reading what he wrote, there's there's moments of clarity. There's moments of brilliance there. He's a genius. However, it was as though the motive was really blurred in his mind. He was so filled with anger, he had this sense of he needed to seek revenge. And who knows what? That really. What what that really was? Born from was it born from?

Unknown speaker: Him.

Jamie: Experiences in childhood or at Harvard or. You know, just the society in and of itself, will will never really know. But he was a rage filled killer and. All of the members of the FBI who crawled into his brain in his writings for years. That's the first thing they say.

Austin: Rage.

Jamie: Rage and. It was almost just like you said, a smokescreen. For his killing.

Josh: Yeah, I believe that 100% same I think. Which is why I thank God he was caught when he did because I think. I mean and just and also looking at his list of. Potential victims? I mean, he had so his hit list was massive. And so at what point? Does it just become about annihilating your hit list versus spreading the message of your manifesto and to try? I think you did a poor attempt at trying to mask the the manifesto to cover up the killing because I think it's very apparent.

Austin: Yeah.

Josh: That. This was about revenge, and there's that quote. Speaking to personal revenge for him that. I think is true throughout this entire entire life, but I want to ask you. Let's talk a little bit about, you know, where Ted started in life and where he ended up his drastically different. And you're good friends with David, his brother who, you know, by all accounts is a amazing guy. Totally normal. And so how did we get from point A to point B with Ted? What do you think happened there?

Jamie: Yeah, for Ted, I think it was just that perfect storm and. He did have an incident when he was around nine months old that he was separated from his mother and at that time he is it. It was a very critical time in his development at that age, realizing that he's not connected to mom anymore and so. That definitely could have had an effect on the rest of his development. The rest of his life. He was advanced multiple times in school, was never able to really connect socially to his peers. He always felt like an outsider and different. And and then he goes to Harvard, and he's only 16. I can't imagine being in that situation at such a young. Age. He wasn't. Socially ready, he may have been academically ready for that jump, but he was not socially ready. And then, of course. The experiments that happened there.

Josh: Yeah. What do you make of those?

Jamie: I think that. I mean, they wouldn't take place now. Well, you would hope, right? I don't know, because I can't say that for certain.

Josh: Yeah.

Austin: Yes.

Jamie: But ethically, I would hope that they would not take place because. Here is this miner and he's going. He's from a working class family in Harvard. He's worked really hard academically to get there. He's. Financially supported to get there and here he is. Being. Really attacked for his ideals through these experiments looking at. The humans response to stress. And. To Ted, not only is he feeling isolated, he's feeling different. He's feeling awkward. He's younger, he's from a different. Class of family than most at this school. He prides himself on his intellect. That's who he is. That is his self esteem. That is his worth. That is how he was raised and for better or worse, that is how he feels. And so for that to be attacked for his ideas, you know, to be attacked for his physical appearance. To to be made fun of in these interviews was incredibly cruel and may not have had such an effect on another person, but for him it was very detrimental. So he goes through this. All these little steps along the way, you know, one by itself, probably wouldn't have made a big difference in the trajectory of this person's life. But all along the way, these things are happening, and then after Berkeley, he goes to Montana, where he is just trapped in the echo Chamber of his own mind constantly. And so that type of isolation. And. Can't be good for anyone really, but to have these experiences maybe have already a an issue with. With mental health. Then you add in the isolation. I mean it was truly just it. I hate to say perfect, but perfect storm for this individual to turn out the way that he did.

Austin: It's a perfect summary of yeah, of Ted's journey there. I I really appreciated that.

Josh: There's yeah. Like so there's no better way to put it. It's just. Like. I wonder what his parents did. His his parent. I'm trying to remember his parents know about the Harvard experiments.

Jamie: So they actually had to sign like a yeah, they had to sign off on it. They, of course, didn't know the extent of what was going to happen. I mean, it was truly like the way it was put was kind of these personality tests, and they would be writing about their personalities, their ideals, things like that.

Josh: They did OK.

Austin: Yeah.

Josh: Yes.

Jamie: I don't think that his parents would have willingly signed him into something in which their. His these people that he idolizes, the professors are attacking the way that his beard looks or his his ideas.

Austin: Right. We're gonna try to break you. Yeah, right.

Josh: What is David's take? Does he kind of take the same stance that this was kind of a perfect storm of things or what? What's?

Jamie: His angle? Yeah. I mean, he shared a childhood with with his brother, and he'll be the first to say that there are things that happened in Ted's mind, they're completely different, and I think that's very similar to many siblings, like one has one perspective and one has a completely different one. But with them a lot of times the difference was very extreme in the way that they remembered their upbringing or their family. David always remembered his parents as being very loving, very supportive and having. An incredible childhood and, you know, being in nature lot and going camping and playing instruments together and being supported academically. Well, Ted definitely had a very different take on it and so their perspectives are much different on childhood. And I think that. David definitely shares in the idea that. There were so many different things that Ted did go through and I think that. One of the things, especially that David and his mother Wanda both felt was. Instrumental and Ted's change was that time as a baby, being separated from his mother and being placed on splint so that he couldn't scratch his rash and even she wrote in. His baby book about the experience and how. When she picked him up after he'd been in the hospital, he he had just this institutional look like he had, just, like, given up. I mean, that's tragic. That's really sad.

Josh: Yeah, as a mother, I'm sure you can attest how important it is to. Born with your child and then now as a. As a new parent. I I can't imagine not having that bond and especially hearing how they used to do things back in back in the day. Like they'd whisk your baby off, and now it's like they.

Jamie: Right.

Josh: Pull the baby out. Put it right on Mama's chest and. I could imagine in the other way like it just seems like that's what needs to happen, that that bonding starts immediately versus separation. I can only imagine has some sort of psychological effect.

Jamie: Yeah. Absolutely, because at that time you think you are connected to your mother…

Josh: Well, you're physically connected, yeah. You've severed and then…

Jamie: Physically connected, and then yeah, mentally you are in your mind part of this other person. And so them not being there and being alone like that. And yes, it was, it was horrible, but it was also, it wasn't that he was tortured, that was the times. You know, that's how things were done. And again, that by itself maybe wouldn't have had an effect. But then all of the other things that happened after that.

Josh: Mm-hmm. Right. Because I think a lot of people say. Well, you know, tons of people go through really horrible things or have horrible, abusive childhoods. And. They don't end up serial killers, or they become great people, so why should we give Ted any sympathy for his upbringing? You know, he's just an evil guy through and through and and that's it, right, like. And. As easy it is to just kind of sum it up as that, I think you do have to break it down and look at look at different things because. Anything could be added or removed to change the course of somebody's life. I don't think you can just say there's one path to this, right?

Jamie: I think it's important as people too, just to be aware of. There could be something that you do that change changes the trajectory of someone's life.

Josh: Yeah. Like the butterfly. Effect the fish and catcher, right?

Jamie: Yeah, maybe there is somebody who has gone through something horrific in childhood, but you're able to.

Unknown speaker: To.

Jamie: Help and inspire and and do something great for this person and maybe it changes. Maybe it doesn't, but we we all have. I guess the power to affect others.

Josh: Yeah. And. And your family had such. What are you guys doing or not had an effect on Ted and you know positive or negative depending on which way you look at, look at it, but. I think the biggest thing that stands out is the isolation, right? We all know there's studies that have been done on prisoners and solitary confinement. We know that it's not. Healthy for the human mind to be isolated from human contact and. So that to me, is the biggest. Stand out, experience. He had. Where? When you're trapped in your mind and you're thinking. You're especially that level of intelligence and. Going so deep into the world, trying to deconstruct it and figure out like, why is society the way that it is? It's like. It's almost like he was in this thought loop every single day. He's like, oh, you know, we're doomed. Basically, if we don't change the way that we we live our lives and I'm here to try to make. Bring a solution to the table and so it's getting trapped in this thought. Loop over and over again while also. There's that other part of him, there's that, you know, the monster inside that is, you know, seeking revenge. And I think the two kind of marry each other and it. Manifests into what we see as the Unabomber, which I think. Really is the main reason why everybody's so in intrigued by this case is here we have a. Genius level individual mathematician professor. I mean, this guy could have went on and. Done amazing things in his life he could. And. You know, searching the cosmos or I mean. I know in. He solved an unsolvable equation like he's that brilliant, and the fact that. He made it to this point. It's just like, wow. What could have Ted done had he stayed on the right track or had? That person in his life that gave him what he was looking for, love, connection or even just friendship, you know, genuine friendship that feels like. You know, because he did have the one friend that he bonded with in school. Yeah, but then. You know, they separated and things just got worse and worse after that. So.

Unknown speaker: Yeah.

Josh: I think this is. A. Like in hindsight and there's a. Moral of the story? I guess it's just like how important. Relationships are in human interaction and love like it's kind of like a story of like this is what happens when people aren't loved is, you know. All sorts of things can go wrong. What do you what do you think about? All that do you do you.

Jamie: Ohh my gosh, I agree wholeheartedly and it was one of the themes that I just kept coming back to in. My book. Is that theme of human connection? How would Ted's life have looked if he was? Emotionally capable of forming those relationships. Would would he have turned out the way that he did? Possibly, but also human connection in the way that. Looking at my own dad and his connection with FBI agent Max Noel, who was the arresting officer on the Unabomber case. And. How their friendship and connection really did? Contribute massively to the apprehension of Ted Kaczynski and so. When you start to. Peel a bat. There's all of these examples of just how important these connections are, and such a strong theme. I suppose in my book.

Austin: Yeah, I do want to come back around to Butch. I also want to touch on. We're on kind of the idea of fatherhood, and apparently what we touched on a little bit before this was sounds like Ted's father had a similar demise as Ted in, in prison. And you kind of enlightened me to that. We didn't talk about that on our on our big episode, but could you touch on that what you know about Ted's father and obviously mental health, which is kind of the backdrop of that?

Jamie: Yeah. So Ted's father, Ted's senior, lovingly referred to as Turk. Was, UM, he was definitely a family man. As far as David is concerned, they again, they were always going on adventures together, hiking, camping. They were very close family and. When Ted had been living in Montana, David and Ted were both adults. Turk discovered that he had terminal cancer. And instead of facing treatment and going the traditional route, he actually committed suicide. He committed suicide with a gun in their family home and. It was just a I mean that it's so tragic anyway, but such a. Horrific events to have happened and to find your your husband and you know, father of your children. Deceased in your home like that and so. There is there was that question too. When I discovered that of was there some undiagnosed mental health issues going on in in that home beyond Ted Kaczynski?

Austin: Yeah, because we know it's a bit debated, but he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and he also, if I'm not wrong, Ted also was diagnosed with cancer and also took his life. So strange how those things add up. Sorry if that got a little depressing there. But. I did want to circle back to your father, though, because I think he. He's he's kind of a hero in this story. I find it fascinating that.

Josh: Yeah.

Austin: He kind of felt this responsibility after everything that happened, and you do have the video footage still that he took for the FBI. Could you talk about his mission basically, when when they requested that of him and just get? Into that a little bit.

Jamie: Yes. So it was a very delicate dance with the FBI coming to my father because this was an incredibly high profile case that they had been working on for 17 years. And so they were very deliberate, very careful about who they spoke to, who knew about it because obviously they didn't want.

Josh: Yeah.

Jamie: Anything tipped off? And so they did come to my father and. Danced around the subject a bit about, you know, we're we're looking into your neighbor. He's suspected of writing some threatening letters. You know, we're just kind of checking things out. And then as the conversation progressed and Max Null kind of felt out my dad a little bit, my dad felt out him. It it was uncovered that. He was actually there because they suspected Ted Kaczynski, our neighbor of being the Unabomber, and my dad was. I mean, shocked doesn't even really cover it. Here's this. Person that he has lived next door to for, you know, over 17 years himself at this point. And again, he's just in his mind, going over dinners together, and I'm sure you know that the times that Ted is losing his temper with him and just all of the memories are. Flooding and there was also a part of him that was like, no way. There is no way that he could have pulled it. Like, have you met this guy? There's no chance that this hermit has. Tricked and deceived a nation for 17 years. It's the longest, most expensive FBI investigation in history. There is no way that my neighbor is at fault here. But OK, let's like, make sure.

Josh: Yeah, right. You're saying he is like.

Jamie: So. So they continue their relationship and Max is asking him to do certain things like we can't really get back there, we we would. To see a get a glimpse of the property. So my dad does take him back there. Ted Kaczynski comes out of the cabin as they're back there with the FBI agent and my father. But it's my dad. So my dad is a staple in the environment that is not. Thinking that anything is off, the FBI agents are they're very methodical as well. They're dressed. As. You know, they've got their western snap shirts on, they've got boots, they've they've went as far as, like renting a rent, A dent truck. Like they are completely blending in with their environment.

Josh: Yeah.

Jamie: So Ted comes out, my dad kind of waves at him. It's like it's just Butch here. No worries. And Ted kind of just looks at him, like, rolls. His eyes goes back into the cabin. And that was the first look that the FBI got at Ted Kaczynski. And Max Noel. It was shocked that this was the person that they had been. Yes, hunting and deceiving.

Josh: Yeah. It's been a lonely night for.

Jamie: I mean, it was. It was definitely a moment for, for. Him. So anyways, the the investigation continues, they are trying to get images of the cabin, the surrounding they need it. For a search warrant, but they also just need it to prepare for the arrest, they need to know the pitch of the mountain. And like, where Ted could possibly run to if, if he.

Unknown speaker: Types.

Jamie: And they bring in all of this like multi $1,000,000 equipment to get the footage. Nothing works because the timber is so dense and there's snow on the ground and Ted's not coming out of the cabin. I mean, there's all of these obstacles against. Him. So the FBI asked my dad. To take his little camcorder and walk the roads, record the footage of all of the property. The road that leads. Up to Ted's house and his cabin. And of course that this time my dad knows who potentially his neighbor is. He knows that he has guns because he hunts. He knows that it's very possible that he has bombs in there. But he did. He felt a responsibility. And he he knew that he couldn't. He couldn't take one other person getting maimed or killed. By the hands of this man. So he did it.

Austin: And a fun little factoid your dad taped on the same footage that you had your Christmas footage. Yeah, so it's like family Christmas.

Jamie: My dad is very he's very resourceful and I just had to laugh because I requested the footage from the FBI. It was in the FBI files. And so I wrote in to get those videos and it comes back to me. Finally, after, you know, and it's always so anytime still I get an e-mail from the FBI or mail from the FBI. You don't know until you're like in it. But it's a little alarming.

Josh: Yeah, I'm sure.

Jamie: Like what is this? And so I opened it up and they had converted. It was old school like cassettes, you know from camcorder, converted it onto DVD.

Unknown speaker: Yes.

Jamie: So I pop it on my computer and I'm like, Oh my gosh. This is our family Christmas. And then it cuts out and there's like static cuts out to. My dad filming the property and I'm just like, could you not have used a new tape like?

Unknown speaker: Wow.

Josh: Yeah.

Austin: It sounds like the start of a found footage. Horror movie, you know? Yeah, that's wild. That's a fun little factoid, though.

Jamie: Plus, what are we missing on that Christmas? Like, what did I get? I'll never know I.

Josh: Yeah.

Jamie: Don't remember.

Josh: Ohh no. Did the FBI give your dad any assurances like around safety protection? Like was there a sniper? Out there like. Oh yeah, protecting him as he walked around. Or. Alright, you'll be good luck. Bulletproof vests. Nah, you.

Jamie: Don't need that, no.

Josh: Your hairs out here.

Jamie: Yeah, I think. It was basically like my dad got to choose when it was and he. Went out there. He parked his truck at the sawmill, got out at the sawmill and then just started walking up the road up to Ted's house. And no, there was, and he couldn't tell anybody either. That was the other thing, because the FBI was very adamant about do not even share this with your wife.

Josh: Ohh wow.

Jamie: Nobody can know what we're doing here. And so he kisses his wife goodbye and heads out the door. She has no idea. What he's about to do.

Austin: Man, that's heroic, man. I know too many people who would be big mouthed about that and tell start telling people.

Josh: But guess what? The FBI has got me.

Unknown speaker: There.

Austin: My next door neighbor, it's the. It's the biggest case that you guys had in in forever. And yeah, that's wild. That your dad? I mean that's that's goes to show his character though you know he's willing to keep that a secret and he was willing to.

Jamie: Yeah.

Austin: To have that bravery to just go in there. And do it.

Jamie: He was so humble about the whole thing and. It was one of the driving forces while I was riding because he he did pass away, passed away of cancer and so while I'm writing the book, you know, I of course he's top of mind in his memory and. I am learning for the first time so many things that my dad helped with and did from the FBI. He never shared those those things with us and you know, he was told to, like, keep it very huh. Because it was such a high profile case, he only did a couple interviews. But to not share the details with your own family, like that's next level.

Josh: Yeah, well, that's that's FBI for you. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds FBI.

Austin: Wow.

Josh: So take us through. Your guys's experience when they swoop in. And get Ted.

Jamie: So yeah, it's the whole day is full of tension. The as you know, when I'm interviewing FBI Agent Max Null, he could just, he said, like you could just feel the tension in the air. Everybody was so just ready to get this done, ready to get it over with and.

Josh: Crazy day I'm sure.

Jamie: So it's FBI agent Maxwell, Tom McDaniel, another FBI agent, and then officer Jerry Burns, who worked for the Forest Service. And they have their coffee on my father's logging deck. And you know they're. My dad's like. Passing around his little Stanley, filling everybody up, then they start up the they call it the skid Rd. up towards Ted's cabin. And their plan is to get Ted's out of the cabin by letting him know that they need him to show him where his property lines are. And it was actually an idea that my dad had had because my dad knew how. Protective. He was over his property and his property lines, and now we know for good reason. But he thought that that would probably get him out of the cabin.

Austin: Yeah.

Jamie: So they knock on the door, Ted answers. They introduced themselves, Jerry, the Forest Service agent, was already known to Ted because he worked in the area. So that was not all. But he told Ted that he was with these other miners and they're from this mining company. They needed to see where the property lines were. And he was like, they're clearly marked. And and they're like.

Josh: Don't think I've done that.

Jamie: Exactly if I could.

Josh: I would build a wall around me.

Jamie: I'd cement myself in so then their response is, well, they're covered in snow. Like if you we really do need your assistance, there's like, OK, let me get my. Coat he starts to walk back into the cabin to get his coat and. The four service officer grabs him and pulls him out of the cabin. And takes him to the ground. Then the FBI pulls their guns and tells them who they are and what they're here for. So. It's wild because. Who knows again if? That. If that incident had taken a different direction in any way. Ted had guns very close. He had a bomb right under his bed. So maybe he was going to get a coat, or maybe he felt. That he was. Being threatened. So it's hard to say what was actually going to transpire, but he was apprehended.

Austin: And you had a little factoid, he wasn't actually arrested right outside his cabin, right? He was taken to another cabin.

Jamie: Exactly. So they didn't have enough to arrest him and take him in because yes. Ohh yes. Everything was very much by the book. So they had us. They served them basically with a search.

Austin: So they were doing it by the book.

Jamie: And while the FBI and the bomb task force searched the cabin, they took him to a nearby cabin like a little hunting cabin, and the FBI had spoken to that person who owned it prior to. This day, of course. And they had all sorts of. Unabomber. Timelines. Newspaper clippings. Different wanted posters all over this cabin. So as soon as Ted walks in there, he realizes.

Austin: We know who you are. That's what they're saying, right? Yeah.

Jamie: The gravity of this situation and everything they had already gathered, obviously very intentional. And. Once the FBI starts to. Go through Ted's cabin. They found multiple. I mean, they found explosive materials. They found the typewriter that was in question. They knew it was a Smith corona. And I think it was like 2.5 pica or something like that on the keys. And so they knew exactly what they were looking for. They found those things. And then they knew that they had. Enough to actually place him under arrest.

Austin: Oh man, what a big day. You know what I love about this story? It's a small little fact, but I love that you brought up. You know, even the most. A dedicated FBI agent who is about to go apprehend Ted Kaczynski himself. They start the day just like I do with just a. Good cup of coffee.

Josh: Joe.

Austin: I love that your dad was serving that. Yeah, they're just hanging out on the porch for a little bit before they're about to. We'll catch the biggest domestic terrorists ever. That's.

Jamie: I know, and there's all these FBI agents, like in their white Gilly suits, getting all suited up out there and they're just sitting there.

Unknown speaker: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. Is there, I mean, they were prepared for a a shootout. Possibly, right? Yes, I mean. I mean, luckily the plan worked out in their favor. His hat, Ted gone in there and like detonated. One of his bombs or.

Austin: You imagine like him that he might have had like a kill switch, like I wouldn't have all the thoughts that would have gone through my head of the danger of going up to that cap. And. And it's it's fascinating that they were able to apprehend with basically no incident.

Jamie: It is, and that was very important to David when he was talking to the FBI and something that. FBI agent Maxwell could not guarantee to the family, obviously, that it would be a safe capture, but they were going to do all that they could to ensure that it was. As safe as possible. And they didn't want a Waco or Ruby Ridge type of situation. It was very thought out.

Josh: Right, yeah. Yeah, I think that was the the move. Yeah. And luckily, I mean, you're dealing with a tiny little shack versus like, yeah, exactly. Compound. So a little bit easier and he's alone.

Jamie: He is alone and the profile is a person. But you know there's so many writings that. Are we, us, our and so?

Austin: Truth. Ohh, so they thought there was maybe someone else.

Jamie: I don't know if again the profile was a person, but you couldn't completely rule out that there weren't others involved. So there was, you know, there were a lot of unknowns and they also knew that Ted most likely had. Some other cabins set up. In order to escape with weapons and dried food and things like that, if he needed to escape. So if he was able to get out of that cabin. And they lost him. Who knows where he could have been. And so that was also a fear of the FBI's if they didn't get him in, you know, a a safe, secure place where they could remove him.

Austin: Alright. And that's why they brought so many of them to and didn't they have they had SWAT teams or something out on the road, right? Yeah.

Josh: Yes.

Jamie: Yes.

Josh: From your research, why do you think it took the FBI so long to to solve this?

Jamie: I think it was. A lot of different reasons. I think that the. Case was investigated by different units and in transition there were things that were lost until it finally ended up, you know, with the FBI and a dedicated team. So there's that portion of it. There's also the fact that. Ted is using these untraceable items in his bombs. He's not going to the hardware store or buying his chemicals off of Amazon. You know he is sourcing and finding these elements of his bombs in a way that they are completely untraceable. And so that definitely added to the difficulty in finding this person and hunting them down.

Austin: And you had, after his arrest. I mean, this was many years later, obviously. But. You did have an an interaction with Ted when he was in prison, correct?

Jamie: Yes, I decided that I wanted. I'd always wanted to write to Ted and. It was more about me than it was about him. It was just basically like. I'm pretty ****** *** that.

Austin: Yeah, yeah.

Jamie: What you've done and what you did to our family and. It was. That's really kind of what motivated it initially and then obviously for writing my book, it was so important to me. To tell the entire story in this. So it's easy enough for me to like exist in a vacuum and just tell my story. But it wasn't the whole story. It was so much more important to. Tell the story of this whole person, even though he was this bad guy in my mind, he was still. A child, he was still an adolescent. He still had these experiences. He had a family. And so I felt the need to incorporate as many things as possible to give my reader a. For. Look at all of these people involved. Even even Ted. And so that was part of that process, was writing to him and getting his his thoughts into the book as well.

Josh: Did they ever let people visit with him?

Jamie: Yes, actually. And and I had just started the process of.

Josh: Ohh really?

Jamie: Visiting him because he was in Super Max. In Florence, Co and there were very specific criteria to visiting an inmate there. You had to know him previously prior to incarceration, be a family member or law enforcement. And I think maybe some journalists, obviously, because there was that one interview. It came out and but it definitely had to be like, vetted and it was a process. So I had just started that process.

Unknown speaker: Yes.

Jamie: And then the pandemic happened and they stopped allowing visitors at Super Max. And then once I wrote to him and he wrote back to me, I felt like that was enough. I really didn't need anything additional, like for my own closure.

Josh: What did he? What did you ask him? And what did he say to you?

Jamie: So in my letter I I probably wrote like 9 pages to him and it was personal. It was, you know, some nods to like some different memories growing up, you know, next to him, my father, I wanted to let him know that my father had passed. And while they didn't? Have a close friendship at the end. There was still, you know, something there from being neighbors for so long. And I thought he would appreciate knowing that lots of things like that. And then I did get into. Just a little bit more on. Social issues and you know what? What he felt, what he thought of adolescent development and technology and and some different like pretty specific things and so. While my. Letter to him was very. Thoughts. And. Very researched and pretty thorough. His his response was not quite the same.

Josh: You spent a lot more time on yours than.

Jamie: Yes, exactly.

Josh: He did on. Yours. Yeah. Do you say anything about your dad?

Jamie: Passing no, which was actually just one more thing that was like, OK, I don't need to go see him at the supermax. He didn't need it. He didn't even acknowledge that part in his response. Yeah, it was kind of a power.

Josh: Yeah, I know. OK, you don't care. Oh wow.

Austin: What * ****.

Josh: He just wants to talk about ideals and yeah.

Jamie: Power move. Exactly so. No, it was, you know, a nod to, like, thanks. It's always good to hear from people who I've known in the past. And thank you for writing. And you know, talking about the there was a page lost I guess in the letter. And so he got his digs in on the law enforcement that was working there and their their incompetence. Yeah, exactly. So there's that.

Josh: Oh yeah, front shade of the. Federal Bureau of Prisons. Yeah. Yeah. Cause like, of course.

Jamie: And then he literally told me to buy his book on Amazon.com.

Josh: Yeah, that's crazy. That was just crazy.

Austin: Imagine writing this very thoughtful letter, you know, thought provoking, and someone just goes. Just go buy my book, God.

Jamie: It was.

Austin: It's really nothing likable about Ted Kaczynski.

Jamie: No, it wasn't shocking because I almost did. I did expect that because like I said, all the conversations. That we would have for so much on the surface through the years and so. I I didn't really think that he was going to like. Go deep and offer condolences to my dad. Was there a part of me that maybe hoped that he was experiencing some sort of rehabilitation and those years in prison had maybe changed him a little and his perspective?

Austin: Worth a? Shot.

Josh: Right.

Jamie: Of course there. Was part of me that hoped for that, but I wasn't again, like, shocked that that was the response.

Josh: Seems like prison only. Helped him like. Continue in his old ways like. From what you were saying, he's really thrived in prison. He was really. Enjoying his life, I guess. Being in that sort of. Confinement. I mean, it's kind of something condition himself throughout his life, but. You think you ever changed or felt an ounce of guilt or regret about what? Anything he did.

Jamie: I don't think so. I think there were moments in his writings where he had some fleeting guilt. But it was fleeting. It wasn't anything that I don't think if he did things differently, he would have changed.

Josh: I think he was going to. Continue had he not been caught, just couldn't continue killing and. You know, this is an interesting thing that we were talking about in our episode of, you know, we're kind of towards the, you know, his arrest 96. The internet's starting to really come about. With Ted have been any different, had he had access to the Internet and knew how to utilize that as a tool, would he have continued using that for bad and evil, or could he have seen that there's a way to connect with people? Like him. Maybe in a more positive way.

Jamie: That's a really interesting question. I think that at the time of his. Arrest. Because he was so immersed in this life, there was no going back. I think that he would have used. The Internet to target his victims. And. You know that is one of the reasons that. He made mistakes during his bombing campaign. He was looking through old directories, printed directories for his targets and so by the time he's reading this directory, somebody else had been.

Speaker 4: Right.

Jamie: Put in that position as you know, the President or whoever he was, he was going after. And so. He. Bombed the wrong people. And so I think he just would have used technology. He would have found that loophole in. The. Manifesto to use technology for his own ideology and to use it in that way. But that's.

Austin: Just my opinion, the loophole that you're referencing is basically like he he was saying I can use technology as long as it furthers my goals. Right.

Jamie: As long as it's furthering the cause.

Austin: The. Yeah.

Josh: 100% agree with you. He would have definitely. Use it as a tool to just do terrible for. More damage?

Austin: One more thing. I kind of want to ask Lincoln. You've returned right? Since since then is it still kind of the same sleepy town as it was? Is it? Does it have a different connotation now?

Josh: Do people go out there to find Ted's cabin?

Jamie: Yeah. So it went through a very strange time right after the arrest, where it was just swarming with journalists with. People who wanted to see where Ted had lived, and it definitely felt different there. But you know, it's many years later at this point and was arrested in 96. There are still people who come to Lincoln to see. What it feels like, what it looks like in this place, that this serial killer. Lived and there is a a couple places in town who I think they have. One of the. One of the shops the cannabis shops has like a Unabomber strain, I think. And there is a like a Kaczynski draft beer. And I think they have my book. But, you know, so there is still that part of Lincoln.

Austin: Oh my God.

Josh: Oh, I'm sure, of course.

Unknown speaker: Hey, ash.

Jamie: It has expanded. It's still only about 1000 residents. It's a very small town. I think the ratio of bars to churches is about the same, but. There is a skate park that was donated by Jeff Amont from Pearl Jam in the town, a little Community Center. There is a beautiful art installation outside of town that's like this walking trail. They bring in all these international artists that do these sculptures that are able to. Kind of blend in with the natural environments, and there's definitely these bits of culture and. And. There is a change in this tiny little town, so it's not all about the home of the serial killer doesn't mark it forever.

Josh: That's good, yeah.

Austin: Hopefully a positive change you see. So there is something that come up. I could go there to get.

Unknown speaker: Yes.

Austin: My. Unabomber IPA on draft.

Josh: I can smoke my Unabomber bowl. My God.

Jamie: And you know, the Blackfoot River runs right through that town. And so there's the movie, a river runs through it that, you know, is.

Austin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Fly Fishing movie, right? Yeah. I love that movie.

Jamie: Yeah, and. And it's a beautiful movie, and it's a beautiful river. And so that attracts a lot of outdoorsmen, a lot of peaceful fishermen. So there's all these different elements to the town.

Austin: Yeah.

Josh: That are much more positive. Is there anything?

Austin: That's good.

Josh: Before we kind of wrap things up and. We obviously want to. Talk about your book and where to find it and all that good stuff. Is there anything? Throughout this whole process and writing your book that really shocked you that you were. Maybe not ready for or something you found out about your father that maybe you never knew. Was there anything like that that you came across?

Jamie: I think that. The most difficult part of this, and the most shocking part of this through five years of research and. Trying to crawl into this serial killers mind. And. Just the emotional toll of that trying to understand a murderer was. Shocking to me, I didn't realize how difficult that part would be. And in addition to that, it was. The research that I unearthed while writing the book this story has been told in so many different ways for so long, but there were still things that I found that. We're terrifying to me. I mean, the fact that I found the proof that Ted Kaczynski had poisoned and killed my family pet. The journal entries of him debating killing my stepmother and toddler sister. I mean those types of things to me, I wasn't. I wasn't quite ready for but. And you know, it was definitely important to the process. And as I said, I wanted to tell the entire story. And so I had to. Do the book justice and do exactly that, no matter how difficult that was.

Josh: Yeah. And I wanted to bring up to. You know the victims that did lose their lives in this case. And just how the devastation when that happens is not only immediate, but it's long term and it affects those families for years and years to come. Did you have any? Conversations or experience or research along. The victims and and their experiences.

Jamie: I did a lot of research on the victims. I read all of the victim impact statements from the trial. Which I felt like were the most. Powerful examples of that raw human emotion and that ripple effect of Ted's violence. So after I read those, I connected with David Kaczynski and. I really didn't feel the need. To reach out and speak to the victims specifically. And it was out of respect. Because I had what I needed. To tell this story and their specific trauma wasn't my story to tell. And I just didn't want. I know that even now. When I talk about. Our history with Ted. There is an effect on you and I didn't. I didn't want to invite that into their lives so.

Unknown speaker: Yes.

Josh: I think that makes that makes sense and. Is a thoughtful thing to do. That's their story to tell if they want to. They want to tell it.

Jamie: Exactly.

Josh: One more question for me and then I promise I'm I'm done. My voice is begging me to shut up right now. But of course, all of us want to know. Did Ted Kaczynski know that you wrote this book?

Jamie: Ted Kaczynski did know that I wrote this book. And I actually told him that I was writing a book about my childhood, our experiences, and. As much of his story as as I could and I wrote that letter to him in prison. I did not get a response after that, so it's hard to say. I don't know if he read it or not. But I guess I'll never know. Honestly, if Ted Kaczynski did read my book. But hopefully if he did, he bought it.

Austin: Yeah, I was gonna say you. Yeah. Yeah. And your last correspondence was with him was like you should read my book. And now you're like, well, you should read my book.

Josh: Amazon.com. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to to cover before we talk about where people can go and find your?

Jamie: I don't think so. I think that was very thorough. I can't think of anything.

Josh: I I can't either. If that was, I mean, it's great. Clearly, I'm at a loss. So I'm going to let Austin wrap this up, but of course we want you to go check out Jamie's book.

Jamie: So you can find my book Mad Men in the woods life next door to the Unabomber. Really, anywhere you buy your books. I know that's very vague, but Amazon, Barnes and Noble, you can listen to me narrate it. Which I did have to try out for, by the way, on audible. You can read it on Kindle. You can also support your favorite bookstore, which is what I would vote for any local mom and pop bookstore. If they don't have it, they can order it. For you.

Austin: Nice and I have listened to the audiobook it. Was.

Josh: Great. Yeah, yeah. I listened to part of it too. And I.

Jamie: Thank you.

Josh: Was like, wow, you're pro? Yeah.

Jamie: It was really hard.

Josh: It is hard. Yeah, it's very hard.

Jamie: Didn't realize how difficult that would be when I decided that I really wanted to do it, but then once I auditioned for it, I had to wait like two weeks before I found out if I got the part. And I was so like angsty about it. I was like, I want this so bad. I didn't know I wanted it so bad until it was basically in front of me.

Josh: Yeah, I don't think a lot of people know that. I think people see me write the book. You get to be the voice of it, but that's that part of your book. Deal. Was the audible or is that just how they work?

Austin: Right. Yeah. No.

Jamie: No. It happened after the book deal. Yes. So I signed my regular traditional publishing deal that was out in the world and then at least for pre-order. And then we had.

Josh: Oh wow.

Jamie: My book went to auction, which means multiple people were interested in the audio rights and it was audible and a few others and audible one. So they produced my my audio book and like I said, I I didn't realize either that the author just. Especially with the men. Who are wouldn't be able to just narrate their own book, but I get it. I guess you know, just because you can write the book doesn't mean you can read the book. And so they have a financial interest in it at that point and they want it to be a success. So.

Austin: Right, yeah. They wouldn't want like a Ted Kaczynski voice.

Unknown speaker: Yeah.

Josh: Or or my voice right? Yeah, yeah. True. Nobody's hiring me for voiceover right now.

Jamie: Yeah. So it was, it was a definitely a learning experience, but it's super fun actually to write my own book.

Josh: Nice read. Read what David Kaczynski said about your book. Because I liked his his quote on it.

Austin: Yeah. This is David Kaczynski, he said, quote. Jamie Gehrig's book might well be the best attempt. Yet to understand the strange life and mind of my brother, Theodore J Kaczynski. Big words right there.

Jamie: Yeah. And honestly, as an author, there's a A process that I had had to learn about and that is sending out your advanced reader copies to various people in the industry. Your connections. That would provide a strong blurb for the book. And so, before the book is out in the world, I have to with my publishers assistance, find these people. David was a connection, but I was so scared to send him my final manuscript because it was his. I guess blessing to me because we had become so close. We're so incredibly important to me. So those weeks while he's reading and I'm waiting, I was just unpinned and needles so nervous.

Josh: Please like it please.

Unknown speaker: And he said.

Jamie: His words were something like he gave me that blurb and then he said. Not that you need my blessing, but you have my. Blessing.

Austin: Ohh, nice, that's good.

Jamie: Yes.

Austin: Well, there you have.

Josh: Yeah.

Austin: It do you want me to talk us out?

Josh: That would be great, I I think. Gone.

Austin: For the first time ever, I'm going to get to talk us out on the lights out episode. Jamie, thank you so much. Yes, being here.

Josh: For. Such a treat.

Austin: This was great. This is my first experience with the guests and I had a blast listening to you. It's very insightful. So thank you for coming.

Jamie: Thanks for having me. It's super fun.

Austin: Yeah. And I I hope the studio didn't creep you out too. Much. OK, good.

Jamie: No.

Josh: We'll do a blessing before you leave. Yeah, sure. We cleanse. Yeah, here.

Austin: But yeah, that's it for this episode. If you liked it, you know, go comment, go subscribe. Do all that good stuff.

Josh: And we'll put all of Jamie's links below here in the description box. Or. If you're listening and the show description for you, go support her book. There was like I looked on Amazon this morning, 17 left on Amazon. We can sell that.

Austin: Oh yes, let's do it.

Josh: Well, let's let's sell that out and get some more, more restock going so, but yeah, take us out with.

Austin: The yeah. But until next time, lights out everybody.

Josh: Thank you guys.