FBI & The Unabomber

[The sound quality was quite bad, so the automatic transcript is also, but potentially I'll clean up the errors at some point or someone else can.]

By way of prefacing this, I'm going to talk really, really quick, and I'm going to skip over an awful lot because as John said, this was a 17 year investigation, one of the longest, if not the longest in the FBI's history and we just don't have time to go into all of the bombings, or all of the bombs.

But suffice it to say that this task force was formed in San Francisco and I had worked in San Francisco for the preceding 25 years, which is where I met Diane and believe it or not.

I used to be a lot slimmer and had his black hair.

Very scientist.

Various things have.

Changed I'm glad to see it hasn't changed much with.

Diane so anyway.

The uniform case.

In case you don't know how that acronym comes that came up is because this case was a major case in the FBI major case and the FBI just doesn't mean it's not a generic term.

It just doesn't mean it's a big case or an important case.

It means certain things in.

The FBI as to.

Reporting procedures, funding procedures, equipment procedures, investigative procedures, and.

So forth, so normally when a case becomes a major case, as this was major case 75, it gets an acronym.

If you remove back to the kidnapping of Patty Hearst, that case was a major case and it was the acronym for it was called Permak.

The Oklahoma City bombing.

Of the murder federal.

Building in Oklahoma City in 1995.

Or whatever it.

Was that became oak bomb, so this case became a unit bomb, and that's because the early targets of the Unabomber were universities that are for the UN and.

Airline industry, that's where the aid comes from.

Put it together.

With bomb and it becomes a major case.

Your mom, now Diane, can explain to you in reporting back then.

Everything was by hand.

Or by teletype, but mostly by letters.

We called them airtels or memorandum that went by hand and everything was dictated to a stenographer.

And the stenographers had to type out the type.

And as this case got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, you had to include everyone of those bombings in the type.

So the poor stenographer was repeating once we had five or six pages of title before you know about the substance of what the.

Lead was or what we were requesting investigation. So when it becomes a major case every hot list field office at that time I think there were 57 in the FBI.

Was notified and given all the appropriate background information so that when you.

Send a communication.

Out, you just tell the stenographer who took your dictation on that paper, tower teletype, whatever it is. You're about Major case 75, and it would.

That way she didn't have to type all that stuff so that.

Has a significant meaning within the FBI.

And this case became a major case back in about 1985, when the Unabomber sent or placed four months as his most prolific year, and it was the year that he first was successful in his words in killing an individual.

He killed an individual named.

Hughes cropped up in Sacramento.

A small computer store business owner.

We walked out into the parking lot going to a luncheon business meeting solid.

He thought to be a road hazard, a bunch of a couple 2 by 4.

First, with sharp nails putting from him.

Right near his.

Car so he walked over to pick.

Him up and it blew up and.

Completely eviscerated for his credit and in Ted Kaczynski words which we took out of his cabin later, he wrote success.

At last I finally found a way to humanely kill well there was anything but a.

Humane death folks.

It would be just like any of us walking out here and picking something up.

So the following year.

Almost a year later, the lower A.

Year later, year month.

Another small computer store is in Salt Lake City.

The individual known as Unabomber was seen for the only time in 17 years, and that's where the artist conception came from.

The initial one, and he placed the exact same device.

From the previous.

Here, that killed Hugh Scrutton beside the front tire of a young lady, Tamiflu E, who was working at this computer company.

Unfortunate for you.

Tammy was xeroxing and looking out a window and her car was parked right up against.

That window in the parking lot.

And she saw this gentleman.

Come in with that.

Greater sweatshirt aviator sunglasses and kneeled down beside her car and take from a white canvas bag.

The same device 2 by fours nailed together with really shiny nails protruding and she looks down she's right here, he's right.

Down there, she's watching.

She's wrong.

And she turned to her boss.

Whose name gay right, who's the?

Owner of the company and Tammy had a.

Then he was a young lady who.

Didn't mince words and she turned to her boss being right he.

Was across room.

She said hey come look.

At this ******* and see what he's doing.

And gate came over.

Looked out and there he was.

And she said.

One of my sons go out.

And get that.

Well, in the meantime he calmly got up and left and.

One of her sons indeed.

Did come back.

To the business.

Gary and he walked over and picked that device up.

Unlike Hugh Scrutton, Gary Wright had a back problem and instead of bending over.

From the waist.

To pick it up.

He knelt down beside it and reached down, and when.

He did it.

Blew up with a vengeance.

It blue wooden shrapnel up his nose into his.

Face all through his.

Arm severed nerves in his arms.

Gary still doesn't have full use of his hand today, but what we know now from the writings.

We took out of that cabinet in Montana as the Unabomber was frustrated.

Why had he not been?

Able to kill.

Effectively a second time.

So he quit Bobby and from 1987 to 1993 we didn't hear from the Unabomber nothing.

What he said.

He died.

He just got tired upon he's gone away.

close the case we had an agent in San Francisco who wouldn't let the case be closed and we had a sheriff's deputy up in Sacramento who got a call weekly from Hugh Stretton, the one gentleman who had been killed.

Asking of any progress every.

Weak for five or six years, he said it can't be closed, so it was kept open.

In June 1993, all of a sudden.

We heard from the Unabomber again.

A bomb arrived in Tiburon at the residence of a gentleman named Doctor Charles Epstein.

Epstein was a geneticist working up at the University of California, San Francisco, up on Parnassus St, Doing research on Down syndrome.

He was an international, internationally known

Researcher pronouncing.

He came home and his daughter had brought the mail in and an adult daughter and left it on the kitchen table for her daddy.

He walked in and he was confronted with an envelope, a jiffy padded envelope that we all know we get into the mail all the time.

It had a red, white, blue heading label on it.

It was addressed to him, but it had a return address he didn't recognize.

Who in the world is that?

So being quoted, he put.

The string or the device that opens that envelope, and he said that's a blast.

He remembered he heard a hissing and saw a flash and the thing blew up was the size of a VHS tape much smaller than previous bombs?

And Doctor Epstein lost most of the fingers on his.

Right hand doctor.

Epstein was also such a concert cellist.

He never played the cello again.

In his life.

Now all the way across the country the following day Saturday, a gentleman named Doctor David Gelernter.

Who was a?

Very well known.

Computer scientist at Yale University he invented here.

He came up with the parallel of process called parallel processing and so on and so forth.

Very well known in the computer industry world.

He came back to work.

After being gone for a week and was confronted with the same type of envelope, he didn't know anything about Tiburon bombing and he opened it up to did the same thing to him and blew all the fingers off.

But most of the fingers off both his hands.

He almost bled out.

He ran down four flights of stairs and across campus pieces on the Saturday all the way to the Infirmary when he had when he got to the Infirmary, had no blood pressure and I forget how many units of blood.

They had to.

Replace almost all the.

Blood and body police arrived.

Monday morning

An editor at the.

New York Times.

Warren Hoag came to work he was.

A fashion editor of all things.

And he had a letter.

And the letter said, essentially it was typed on an antique typewriter and the letter said hi.

I'm FC.

If you don't know who FC is, ask the FBI.

They refer to me as the Unabomber.

I just want to.

Let you know.

That I'm back and I'm beginning my campaign of terrorism and I'm going to begin killing people again.

I'm not going to use the moniker FC anymore.

I'm going to use this secret number to.

Validate any future communications and he gave.

One period being Social Security number.

Now I have to.

Back up a little bit, it's hard.

To tell the.

Story without connecting all the dots.

The only piece of forensic evidence that we had that was going to connect anyone together over this 16 year period.

Was that all communications, with the exception of one had been typed on an antique Smith Corona circa 1925 to 30 typewriter with Piper style type in 2.54 spacing. It was exact from the very beginning to the letter that Warren hope got.

In New York.

Previous to 1985, when this case became a major case and got an acronym, the individual responsible for all the bombs was known as the Junkyard Bomber.

Not being bomber.

He was known as a.

Junkyard bomber because all of his bombs were fashioned out of.

Those that you could find on a construction debris pile he didn't go to RadioShack and buy switches. He didn't go to the hardware store and buy.

Parts he didn't.

Buy explosives in this morning with structure.

He made everything.

But in 85 they changed it from major case and the acronym became Unabomber and that's what he's referring to.

That letter toward Hood was typed on that tank right now, I don't.

Know what your politics.

Are but I always seem to judge the people that I work with based upon their merit and at that time we had a brand new 19 June 1993, a brand new Attorney General Janet Reno in the 31.

Years I worked in the FBI.

I can say unequivocally, Janet Reno was the best United States Attorney.

Best Attorney General we ever served under.

She's a former prosecutor, she understood and she saw the construction techniques on those two devices and the threat that he made to the New York Times and she said we got to solve this case.

So she formed.

She said, I want a real task force.

I'm making believe task force, but a real task force.

All of the agencies working together under one roof for one boss.

And she went to.

The director brand new director of the FBI Louis.

Freeh and asked for his concurrence, and ask if.

The FBI would.

Give the task force now.

At that particular time, not not all changed after 911, but at that particular time, bombings from a federal investigative standpoint were under 3 agencies.

Bombs on university campuses.

As a result of the 60s and the 70s, turmoil were exclusively the jurisdiction of the FBI.

Bombs placed aboard aircraft because of all the hijackings in the stuff.

In the early 70s.

In the late 60s, exclusive jurisdiction of the FBI, we have bombs in both categories.

That goes through the mail.

Or the prime jurisdiction of the postal inspection service.

One of our bombs went through the mail and.

Blew up aboard American Airlines Flight 444.

Bound from Chicago to.

Washington DC.

So it was concurrent jurisdiction between the Bureau and the Postal Inspection Service, so the postal Inspection service.

That would be involved.

And then if we walked out on the street and we encountered a device laying out on the street somewhere.

The partial.

Jurisdiction on that bomb was.

If you have alcohol, tobacco and firearms.

Over with their local.

Agencies and so forth through different agencies.

So she got the concurrence of the Secretary of Treasury Treasury, Lloyd Bentsen.

Under whom ATF was at that time.

She got the concurrence of the Postmaster General, whose name I never can remember and got him to confirm.

Is that?

And she got Louis Freeh to say we'll have the task force and we will head it.

And this will be a task force where people will come.

And go from, it'll be.

One task force under one roof of agents and postal inspectors working for one boss at his direction.

He tagged he being Luke Free, a former boss of hours from San Francisco.

George Cloud, Jordana taskers.

George was a former.

Chief Inspector he was at that time the Chief Inspector.

Of the FBI.

And he said, George, I want you to establish the task force.

Now most of the devices at that time had come.

Through or been mailed from.

Sacramento, but George elected to put the Unabom task force in San Francisco because we were a much bigger office with a lot more resources.

A lot more office space.

A lot more support employees in George felt more comfortable establishing it there.

So George came to San Francisco in late June.

30 July 1993, to establish Task Force.

At that particular time.

I was just coming off of several.

High profile involved investigation.

This wasn't the only investigation of this kind I've done.

So, two years before I had just completed being the Co case agent on a case that you folks down here may be familiar with.

Where for the one?

Of the first times in history, my partner night convicted a sitting federal District Judge.

Robert P Aguilar, San Jose.

My partner referred to me as his honor.

The fellow so.

That was a high profile case that was under.

Claus supervision, as our assistant in charge.

He liked the work we had done.

I was in.

The Bureau terms.

Riding on a high I had over 25 years in the Bureau I was allowed to commute to Oakland from my home, which was 15 minutes and come to the city on Bureau time as opposed to my own time later with the commute traffic.

Doing what I wanted to do, working with one of my best friends is my supervisor and recall that I called it in the Bureau I was posting in coast.

Second up on files and having a great time.

George got to San Francisco and the long arm of a supervisor reached out and said, I want you.

So now for having done some.

Good work, I got to commute an hour and a half each way every day.

I got to work 11:50 hours routinely every day. I didn't have any vacations or times off to solve what it here for. Been an unsolvable case. Now when we did, we bingo did the examination.

For that letter, doctor Wardle.

One of the first things that they found when they examined that letter as he was typed on the antique Smith Corona typewriter packs down Type 2.5 more spaces.

But they also create under a.

Supersonic electron microscope and they found indented writing.

Remember when you were a kid?

And you had your super.

Secret spike yet?

They wanna piece.

Of paper.

And then we.

Went down 5 sheets underneath and you watch with your pencil and this writing appeared.

That's indented writing, and on that indented writing it said call Nathan or Wednesday 7:00 PM.

We interviewed everybody in.

The New York

Times did anybody take that such a note and not know that that letter was underneath and printed under nobody admitted to having done that?

So the presumption was.

Unabomber had written that note to.

Himself and didn't realize that.

The writing would be.

Indented on that piece of paper that.

He used for the letter.

To New York Times.

OK, now first thing that that task force did.

We said what can we do to encourage?

Help from the public.

We're no different than.

FBI agents for the last 30 years, 20 years.

We're no different than the ATF and postal inspectors for the last 20 years and we haven't solved it.

We're the same.

What can we do differently to solve this case?

We said, how about those offer a reward.

Great idea.

How much money would cause someone to come forward because you can't do these things in a vacuum.

Somebody got to know about it.

How much money you think?

How about $1,000,000? Great idea.

Guess what folks Congress in his infinite.

Wisdom at that time did not provide the ATF, the FBI, or the.

Postal inspection service with reward money.

So in order to get a million.

Dollars we had to.

Go out to the industries involved.

Universities, airlines, medical people, computer companies and get signed contracts pledging money if and when a person came forward with the information that would lead us to identify a rest and successfully prosecute person known as Unabomber.

It took a.

Year to do that, guys.

That's manpower intensive.

Then we said how does the public get that information to us and how?

Do we know about it?

How about will establish A1 800 toll free number. We'll staff it 24 hours a day.

And we'll tell the public they can call in.

And they don't have to get their identity.

Will give him a secret number only known to them in US.

And if the information that they provide leading to the identification, the arrest and the successful prosecution don't.

Qualify for me about the Lord's great idea.

Yeah, manpower intensive, do you know?

How many telephone calls we got?

I can tell you well over 53,000.

Every one of those has to be investigated.

The information has to be.

Looked at seriously and investigated.

That's manpower intensive let.

Alone man in the 800 number all the time.

How do we get that information out to the public?

OK, the director of the FBI, the director, ATF, and the Postmaster general had a national press conference in October announcing the task force announcing the reward announcing.

The one 800 toll free.

Number and they needed to stimulate it.

To get the public to come forward, we've.

Got to give.

Them something that they can hang their hat on.

So we announced the existence of the Nathan R Note and we are drawing our attention specifically to people with the first name of Nathan, Nate, Nathaniel, Nat and what have you and the last name beginning later or call us and let us know.

Good idea when we followed.

Up on that, you'll be happy to know.

That in 1993.

There were 8500 / 80.

500 people in the United States with the.

First name of Nathan middle.

Name Nat Nathaniel, or any derivative thereof and last name beginning letter R.

Over 8500, and then we knew where the Unabomber had been in certain times because of wearing, postmarked with things were postmarked.

The word bombs.

Were after.

We identified everyone of those people in those areas over 35.

100 of them, and we interviewed all of them.

Do you know anyone who might fit?

The bill of this.

Didn't have anything to do with anything we found out.

At the end, but we had to.

Do it, we were compelled to do it.

Then we decided we've got to get all of the files from all the agencies.

All of the federal agencies.

And all of.

The local agencies.

And we've got to combine.

It into one file in one place.

Have any idea how big?

The UNABOM file is the physical file.

As a result of bringing all that information in from.

All over the United States.

It was over 59,000 volumes of information.

Each volume contains over 200 series 200 documents. To multiply that out, that's well over 11 million documents.

You know how agents and ATF.

The postal inspectors were trying to solve this.

Case before that.

3 by 5 index cards and little Blue Square boxes on their desk.

So we computerized all that we had to get our rapid start case management people to come in and then we had to get any investigative full text retrieval program to download documents where with significance from the investigation labor intensive it was over a year to do all of that.

We don't have much other projects, forensic projects and so on and so forth, and we just couldn't solve the case still, but we were putting together the building blocks that would allow us somewhere down the road to identify a person who has some knowledge.

Of what was going on.

With a relative, a friend or so forth.

People say to this.

No, they say.

It was easy.

It was easy, Brother told you.

It was if you want to come up afterwards. I'll show you, report him that our analyst give for us so 59 other brothers.

The interesting part of that was we had 230 some former wives to identify their ex-husband.

Second, they were coming.

Forward since June.

And so forth, but it.

All has to be looked at.

It has to be looked at seriously and investigated seriously.

And in that first year we did forensic analysis.

We did the computer for the first time in history that will use the Internet.

We would have.

How do you know what the Internet was for guns?

We've got.

Computers still you look at all this information.

I never use a computer in my life.

And once we investigated for old guys like me.

So we had to be trained on how to use turn.

Computer on and off that's

A big deal for me.

I learned.

One thing and I.

Told our computer out.

Each person a couple weeks ago that I had fortune to communicate with Bruce Scott.

I told I still use one of the first things she taught me when I was having trouble with that computer, she said was.

That I said do a hard reboot.

Second, it was very helpful so.

It took a.

Whole year to get all this stuff in.

The condition where we could actually do something proactive to try to find this person, and in the meantime he kept Bama and by the following spring of 1994 as most task.

Forces is starting.

To break up.

People started getting promoted.

People started being transferred and agencies started filling too.

Replaced people and pretty much the task force.

Reverted to manpower and support people of the FBI.

And I say that very product folks.

It's only one agency that could ever have had the stick to liveness had to resolve and not having.

To bring this case.

To successful conclusion, I believe firmly that's the FBI.

At that time, the case reverted from a task force case to control of the San Francisco division of the FBI and my boss Jim Freeman.

Is one of.

The authors of.

The book that we wrote.

What did?

We create.

And ask to take over the case.

Special agents in charge don't.

Do that folks, they don't.

Go out of their.

Way because we're.

Working particularly with that soulful case, so Jim took.

Over the case.

I saw it as a an opportunity.

I've been there for a year.

I did what I was asked for a year.

Like a good soldier.

I just want to go back to open and be allowed to post those retired, so I immediately submitted a memo to that effect.

Jen immediately turned down.

And he decided, you know, I have to take a different direction with this case.

I'm going to employ a supervisor to oversee this case.

Who doesn't come from a criminal investigative background back at that time, the FBI had two divisions, 1 criminal and one foreign counterintelligence security work SCI.

We call IT security magnet.

And security agents are a lot different.

Than criminal agents.

You could go in your office and pick him up.

Criminal agents are short, fat, dumpy little guys like me who's closer over from sitting cars all day and doing leads in what heavy or security agents who are analytical way works brother clothing look like.

They just stepped out of the haberdashery.

And what have you?

Right?

You're packing.

So he said I'm gonna get a foreign counterintelligence person to head this up and did he deployed.

A good friend. Today another co-author Terry Churchy Terry was the supervisor in the powerful resident agency foreign counterintelligence looking for russkie spies and stuff like that, OK?

I still remember the day and.

It's documented in the.

Book that I got a telephone call.

His sweet little voice on the other end.

Of the line, he's sitting right down here, honey.

Say hey Max's dying.

I heard that you and Terry Turkey are going to be working together.

And she started laughing.

And I am new Terry and I are dynamically different personalities.

Terry is very introverted, very analytical, very reserved.

He wouldn't say crap through that mouthful.

And on the other hand, I'm more outgoing.

OK, and.

Diane, did they work though?

Guess what it worked with me.

We had the two opposites.

We commuted together every day.

I would sleep in the morning.

Or terrible if.

Right?

He would sleep in the afternoon while I wrote.

They used to say that I had a conversation before we had the buffet bridge and when he woke up at his home in Danville, I should be talking.

About so again Mr.

We work in looking fatter very much together, so they reorganized when the bombings continued and they got better.

And they got more sophisticated.

And a gentleman.

Already across the country in East Caldwell, NJ, named Thomas Major who was an advertising except executive for.

Yelling RoboCop?

Of was blown apart in his E Caldwell NJ home. Absolutely blown apart but bomb was very.

Trade show

Yeah, sophisticated and very.

Yeah, deadly warnings.

Green paneling, nails, double edged razor blades, shrapnel and so forth.

It killed Mr Bolger immediately and so we threw more manpower out.

And we got more support employees and you've got analysts and we got.

We were doing all kinds of work around the clock and the day after the Murray bombing in Oklahoma City.

Gentlemen up in Sacramento came back to the Gilbert Murray to the Forest Service.

California Forestry Associations Office which was a lobbyist for the lumber industry, had a package and the secretaries had been paying attention to.

What we've been.

Saying in in the news and on putting on it.

Was heavy, it didn't have a metered strip on it and had excessive stances postage it had a red, white and blue mailing label which had old typewriter typing on it.

It had priority mail stamp stamped all over and it came from a return.

Address that no one knew.

And the interesting thing is.

It was addressed to your voice predecessor William Dennison.

William Dennison had been the lobbyist there prior to govern Murray, taking over and William Dennison.

If you remember you.

May not but.

It relates down here.

William Dennison was very outspoken.

And at that.

Time there was the big feud going on between the.

Environmental Liberation Front and the timber industry to save the old growth redwoods of Northern California.

And they were down to their last way of what to do to try to get this old world Redwood saved.

So they came.

Up that that's the habit.

After this spotted out.

So you can't cut.

Down the trees because.

It will endanger this pile up.

William Denison Sherman.

This is true.

Circles showed up.

Over here at.

Stanford to give a speech and of course he left.

People were all over the nail protesting and whatever, and he introduced at that conference, the new.

Book that he.

Had offered called the spotted Owl book.

Health was not.

Impressed by it and they had to physically escorting.

Long handles with the.

With the police escort to get him out of the area, preventing from those people.

So it was addressed to him.

Gilbert Murray, secretary receptionist, said Miss Maria.

This address really Dennison, but it has.

All the earmarks of those things.

The FBI's been talking about.

Maybe I should call him.

Yeah, don't be silly.

And he was a shoe box sized package so we walked back to his office and he.

Opened it up.

Folks, I wish we had time to.

Look at the crime scene.

It literally blew him apart.

His body had no clothing left on and the force of the blast was so intense killed him instantly.

Ted Kaczynski wrote later.

Well, I really don't care.

That I killed Gilbert Murray and that he was a great guy and a really nice guy.

He was probably a more effective lobbyist in his predecessor had been.

So we haven't solved it yet.

And then in the spring of 1995.

We received.

A couple significant things. We got a letter to the Chronicle typed on this with grown at 2.54 spacing pipes.

Outback 192530 typewriter they said hi under longer run. Here's my validation number I'm going to build an airliner out.

Of LAX

Over the Memorial Day weekend.

We do have the ability.

To put a bomb on a.

Plane 'cause you bought it played on from.

Chicago, Washington DC with no problem by sending it.

Through the mail.

All the mail.

Then left Southern California without my truck folks and I went from the other area to the Phoenix area where Big Warehouse was set up with magnetometers and explosive.

So the devices too.

Tell us whether the package is set before they ever re entered the mail stream.

Confusion quickly are you know, bags on just joking.

I would never do that.

But in the meantime.

He said what we refer to as the Unabomber manifesto, a 35,000 word.

If you have insomnia.

Get a copy of it and read it.

Will put you to sleep.

But what he did was he demanded that this be published in a legitimate publishing format, either the New York Times, the Washington Post, one of the large magazines Scientific American, or as all good terrorists would demand penthouse.

So he put it on the same.

Level as the New York Times so.

You know he.

Wasn't all crazy, so anyway.

We got to decide what to do.

It was typed on the same typewriter.

What do we do?

Publish or not publish?

We're going to decide that the attorney general came out and said write a position paper as to what you want to do and bring it.

To DC to Jim Franklin.

We had a meeting in our.

Office in San.

Francisco of the senior management team.

For Unabomber, what do we do and?

The existing thing.

Was we don't give in to?

The demands of terrorists.

We can't publish it.

Jim said, OK.

And then James.

Said I've got another appointment I have to go to.

Write the position.

Paper have it ready for me when I get back later this afternoon and Terry and.

I'll take it to DC tomorrow.

Now boss leaves the room.

Now the real discussion can begin and people could talk honestly without fear, retribution.

And yes, so we decided we had.

To publish, we got a clue.

We've been looking for something that the public can hang their hat on to read and get back to us under one 800 number and.

They come for the reward.

Because there were certain things in that manifesto that we.

Need to be.

You thought that was mine.

You got the same room as me.

To be unique, unique spellings, unique idioms, and so forth.

So we decided.

To publish it, and we wrote the position paper.

Freeman came back later that afternoon walk in since you got paper ready for us.

We said yes, Sir, boss.

So well, there's one little.

Problem, he said what's happened?

We changed.

Our minds, we want to publish and he.

Agreed with this UH-100.

Percent he entirely took it back to headquarters.

When we talk about this in our book, you guys.

Have no idea.

If you just had to do an investigation.

It would be easy.

It's got to deal with all.

This internal bureaucracy and crap.

That goes on.

I'm I'm being honest, you know.

They walked in back there and it was a senior girl management.

Right?

So no, we are, you know.

What do you mean?

They were appalled the thing?

That we would suggest that.

Well, guess what?

Luna create free.

Agreed with us and did.

Janet, Reno.

But now we.

Gotta get it published.

35,000 words. That's a supplement to a newspaper that's costly. We don't have money to pay him, so we went to the editors, the Attorney general, the director frame, and Turchi, and our psychologist Cathy pumping and presented it to the editors of the New York Times.

The Russian post.

And asked them.

To publish it, they.

Didn't want to.

Be in the position of being an.

Agent of the FBI.

We had to convince them that we were doing this for a public safety thing, that this would probably keep more people from being killed and they agree.

And now we have to agree.

Who's going?

To do it.

What we agreed on the Washington Post and we agreed to do it during the week.

Anyhow, you know why that was?

The New York Times has a publishing facility right here in Minnesota. They published thousands of papers every day. The Washington Post, since they got about 24 papers into the.

Bay Area on.

A daily basis.

And they were.

Places like kernels, newsstand and several other in San Francisco.

The behavioral profilers, who I don't have a great regard for to list that and your bomber is going to thirst.

For a copy.

Of his manifesto in the Washington Post, and.

The New York

Times will run right?

Out and buy one as soon as possible.

OK.

So we elected to have the Washington Post do because there's.

A limited amount of.

Copies in the Bay Area and we believe.

That he was.

Living within a 5.

100 mile radius of San Francisco.

So we set.

Up on all those.

Places video surveillance. Physical surveillance with our SOG units. Secure area surveillance units and we identified everybody that was coming in and buying a copy, and we did look at them as a possible even your mother. My suggestion that they wouldn't allow.

Plus we buy 24 to 25 copies and then.

One copy, better be your mom, but hey.

So we had we had to do that.

There's a couple.

Of stories in.

Our book about that and and the.

Extent to which the agents went to.

To get it right.

Thank you, thank.

You good careless he he got his copy.

Later, he wasn't about the.

3rd for getting his copy and print me invalidated.

That's different.

You know he knew it was done and that was always possible, but again was labor intensive and didn't solve anything so published, and we're getting all kinds of calls on Monday.

David Kaczynski, Ted Kaczynski, brother and his wife Linda Dr Kosinski were out of the country.

They were on the European vacation and Linda Patrick Kaczynski.

In my estimation of the true hero in this case.

Everyone says, oh.

My God, his brother, turning many it was.

Great walking with us.

I have trouble.

Turning my brother, but Linda had been paying attention to what we've been saying all along, and she knew what violent ideas her.

Brother lying and how?

We would express it.

And when they when they got back home.

Linda went to.

Work and got on the.

Computer they didn't have a computer at home.

She worked for a small College in upstate New York and she read it and she came home and she said, David, you gotta read this manifesto that was just published, the Unabomber wrote.

It has all the same ideas of your goofy brother, remember that.

Document you sent you 20 years ago.

It's exact you need to read this, he said, and then she said, David.

You know your brother wanted nothing to do with you and your mother again, he wrote your mother some of the filthiest violence letters telling her to stay away from him.

He wrote you those letters saying never ever again contact me.

I don't.

Want anything to do?

With you, but guess what right before Thomas.

Moser was killed.

And then right before governor Skill Ave side taken.

Since he says brother letters asking.

Them to send him money.

I need money.

Can you send me $2000? I need money. Can you send me $2500? I'll quit claim deed.

The cabin to you.

If you will.

Linda was with.

Circle that they had financed the UN bombers killing of the last two.

People, and she's correct.

They had done, she did better, but she didn't know.

So she that name any Good Wife, word Scrabble, unstacking circle thrill spread his little blood up and marching down to the library settings out of the computer, turned it down and.

Said read

David told Kathy Puppet and another agent restart when she did.

When he did, the hair stood up on the.

Back of his.

Neck because he firmly believed.

His brother original.

That's a September 1st.

It took them all the way until late January.

To come to the FBI.

They tried to do their own.

Investigation and I.

Can take it off for hours about that.

Too, but I won't, but eventually.

Right?

In early January they got an attorney on Washington DC.

Gaining information he had a relationship with an agent in Washington DC.

He went to him to ask him about it.

The agent.

Was no longer.

Washington DC. He lived in Charlotte, NC.

Is it done? What can I do in Charlotte, NC? We don't have a lot of Umm?

Stuff here sit down.

Here, Molly Flynn take it tomorrow.

Treason, Washington DC. She's in your bomb agent there and he he took it to the old document. The 21 page thing.

It was typed on the typewriter.

Molly took to the FBI laboratory, FBI laboratory, in their infinite wisdom, examined it, printing documents.

Examination on the typewriter.

It wasn't Smith corona, circa 192535 S at 2.5.

4 station it.

Was another old typewriter.

Can't be him getting back to Molly.

Oh God.

My civil I read this.

I read the manifesto of the same ideas.

She knew how.

Big this case looks at how much information?

We were getting in that 80.

9000 volumes are stopped.

So she picked up the phone and.

She called her office.

And she got my father part.

To loss online and she.

Told him about.

It and Joel said faxing copy.

And dribbled out the copy he got.

Terry, Kathleen.

I we.

Went to lunch at.

Max's diner right down the.

Street highlight of the day and.

Right and all of them are all excited until Chromogen criminal guide.

I don't believe it until I find the typewriter.

That's the only difference again, hopefully but then but.

Tell me what?

To do and will do.

So very long.

Story short, boom they

Dispatched Kathy and we start back to talk to his.

Brother and sister.

In law in.

New York they dispatched a team of agents to go down to Texas where David.

Had a remote location where he had lots of letters and stuff stored from his brother and I get all the choice assignments I got sent to Montana in early February.

Not a place we want to go. I got away from rural Nebraska just because of that. OK, the first year I got up there that night. It was 35 below.

I told Jim my boss I'd accept that assignment on one condition that he not do it the way traditionally we do it, and that's why the subtitle to our vote.

We did a lot.

Of non traditional things and he said, what's that?

I said we can't throw.

Manpower at it.

I don't care how.

Funny we dressed.

I don't care how great we talk, I don't care what our cover story is flooding a whole bunch of agents in the rural Lincoln Mt in the middle of winter.

In your mass muscle, they're going over there so.

He said good.

I came from a small town Mexico down I.

Agree so right January.

This is what I saw.

This is hustle and bustle.

Of downtown Vega Montana Hwy 2.

100 the Main Street, which is a midway point between.

Missoula and Great Falls.

Now the rule was I took.

Gabe over was a former marine young black.

He was a former principal firearms expert in this division, which is the job that I wrote.

Job description for the my.

Occupied during the set.

And then I took on Van wife team John Gray, really boyfriend, girlfriend.

But back in.

The Bureau you.

Couldn't say that.

So he had to be man wife Jane, John Gray, and Castillo, two of the most unsuspecting FBI people you'd ever meet in your life.

Because I didn't think anybody would ever believe they were with the FBI.

4 wrestling.

And this is what?

We were confronted with a week later I took.

Postal inspector all.

Homeless with us.

And that was our.

Team for the.

First couple months.

The manifesto.

That he wrote he worked in this facility, the Lincoln Library. What Berman name was shared? Would the man who detested computers in technology would go to the Lincoln Library at double Wide trailer right off of Hwy 200 and he would give her names.

The research on online and get addresses, that's where he was giving the addresses of these victims, Sherry would.

Oh my God.

Respond and inform on the.

She told us later that he occupied the research section of the library.

For a really, really long period of time downtown.

She had to.

Kick him up.

The research section was a folding.

Table at the back.

And it was during the time that the kids across the street in high.

School were building their.

Term papers, so they were all coming.

Over and he dominated it.

What he was doing.

His writing manifested.

He was smelly, dirty, and wet headed Sherry.

Funny was great and she introduced him to her teenage son as a mentor.

Oh God.

This is the.

Main intersection of beautiful downtown Lincoln Mt.

The intersection of Simplepass Rd, which is.

The road coming out towards.

You and Hwy 200.

His cabinet was 48 miles South of this intersection where the first jobs I had when I got up there was to get a physical description and and if I could pictures of the cabin for the search warrant.

You still live in Port Said hey, we want to search a cabin somewhere, Mary Lincoln, Montana.

You gotta be specific.

You gotta have a description of a better photograph of it.

You know we're rob poor.

It's not a good address.

You gotta have a specific so 40 miles South of this intersection is what they told us, you know?

That is simple pass through BC blanket on there that's simple, pass Rd.

Naked to the left and you see up top, it says.

Not body and then.

Down below mount.

Bellevue you see?

A haircut spot in between those two models.

Is a Canyon called Coldwater Creek Canyon and is a box Canyon and his cabin was up.

In Canyon Creek

There in the back he felt very comfortable in that Canyon that no one could penetrate.

This his security system if you will, to get him to get to him in that Canyon.

This is an aerial view of his.

Yeah, now there's.

A barn down in.

The mouth

Of the cabin down.

In the lower left, and we're not going to.

The Mason family there in.

The middle picture in the clear you see another problem.

That's the Williams cabin.

That's an elk hunting cabin which we granted to use during the arrest in in the circular and Ted Kaczynski scamming, you can't see it.

Right there, but it's clear.

Back in there standing trees about 50 yards 60 yards and you.

Look really real close.

They should be here.

If you look real close.

You see a little white thing, that's a.

Rupis gather it's very difficult to see them.

This early interesting technology, but you use technology, OK?

I'm old fashioned.

Do stuff.

Ah, we get picture of.

Ah, give the cord get.

The coordinates Max take your GPS random GPS.

Getting coordinates give it to us.

We'll give it to MSA, and when the satellite.

Flies over will.

Give you pictures of that you can.

See it dying on the street.

Corner in San Francisco and read the.

Writing on it well.

Yeah, OK so.

They did they go?

Come back, we get these nice big black.

White pictures, all we get is snow and trees.

We've got an operation going on in eastern Montana and the Freeman group, the right wing nuts were there protesting.

We had the new FBI Super secret high high flying airplane night stalker over there night Stalker price 10,000 feet. It's got for your equipment, it's got radar. It's got all this great photograph.

They'll get it for you.

I developed the owner of the property right next to him, which.

Hearing as an informant, if you.

Will cooperating with us and Bush was giving me all the information that I needed for all this stuff and which comes up to me one day.

It says Amex get a good picture of me yesterday.

Amy, what's your good picture?

He says, yeah, wouldn't you guys find?

After about 10,000 feet.

In the wilderness, in the mountains.

Over here off truck driven plane.

Help me.

We've got more big pictures back snow and trees.

How do we get it?

Another gentleman that I developed.

Was a US Forest Service officer Jerry Burns.

He was the most knowledgeable person in this area.

Jerry said well that.

Simple Mount Baldy up.

There has a.

Big herd of elk.

Running the fish and.

Game people are always flying through that Canyon with their little assessment and monitoring that occurred from poachers.

He won't think.

Anything about a little plane flying through there, OK?

One of the guys in our.

Resident agency and in Hell in jail.

McDonald said.

Yeah, I'm a pilot.

Chief for the Bureau.

I can rent a plane and we.

Can do that great gate Dev David Weber.

My young.

Order 1935 millimeter camera 2.

100 millimeter lens.

Yeah, I'll figure out who hung Dave out the window.

And we got these pictures for the search warrant to give to the judge when we presented it to him that just having a little closer view.

As you can see when you enlarge that, you see the top of the.

Can't see any cat.

Cabin there in white was in a scandal life gold mine.

Check and see where the square.

Very difficult to see.

This is the interest to that property and you see Bald Mountain up behind there and you turn to the left.

You go to Bush during slumber bill you.

Turn to the.

Right and you go up that came.

Into Kosinski place.

Even though this is.

Well, these pictures were taken in.

Late February I believe, or very early February.

Now this is stuck password right across the street from that entrance and you see a.

Band or a?

Series of mailboxes.

In this, in the technical terms of the FBI.

Is a clue.

Second, they knew.

We were in the right.

Area, OK, now it's just a matter.

Of getting those photographs.

This is this years over delta.

This is not a sophisticated operation.

It's a one man operation he was.

Growing up on the.

Mountain that he owned behind the system property.

His father had.

Sold consistency is 1.4 acre fish cabins on he would.

He would go up.

There he would skid logs off bring.

It down here.

And make custom fences.

Custom lumber or people up in that area and which was a great guy.

That's much without which is healthy.

Would still be up deliberately, Jerry Burns, and which, again old fashioned informants cooperating witnesses and the health of.

The public.

Go a long long.

Way sophistication, sometimes it just doesn't work.

There's a skid Rd.

Leading up toward Ted Kaczynski's cabin, which is.

Another half amount of 3/4 of a mile of that property.

That is simple past rules.

That goes up well.

With continental divide and eventually down into Helena Mt.

And that's what we were.

Faced with when we were out there very difficult, pretty.

Fun, lots of snow, lots of good weather.

Someone said Jerry said burns, the Forest Service officer that's him on the right.

I'm done.

We can use for service snowmobiles and we can go up on the humbug contrail above this cabin Creek.

Log down through.

The snow and.

Get a picture of it and so.

They did, that's me in the blue parking.

I supervise that operation I don't like.

The creepy crawl down through.

Snow banks in the middle of the month.

So they did as they nearly had them before.

They could really see it.

They heard the cabin door.

Holding close, they said hold, so they left and they got back out and left.

Later in the afternoon, after I had arrested him in my.

Custody he looked me.

In a clear blue sky, he said.

Was at confers upon the humble conquer drill back in February, and so he talked about.

He said, I saw evidence of motorized vehicle and tracks leading down.

Toward my account.

I think that was you.

Well, it was.

But I was.

Very proud that he didn't recognize this.

For what we?

Were even though he.

Knew someone was there.

This is a trail right outside his cabin.

The skid Rd comes right up here and makes left right in turn.

Goes on at the moment.

That's his dad.

It was a 10 by 12 with single law construction cannon normal installation, no running water and no electricity.

I'm serious.

Contrary to what all the experts tell us not only electrical equipment, he had to have the saws and the planes and the whatever he was doing everything by hand everything he manufactured.

By hand they said he needed to have a kill a whole kill because he was melting aluminum, which melts and I think they said 1300 degrees centigrade.

We went to Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, Oakridge National Laboratory.

The American Association said he's gotta have a kill him.

To do that, you can't know without a kill, so we had a project for this.

Looking at everybody in the United States.

The last five years of the bot killed.

I'll show you where he was melting.

His aluminum on.

That's where do we stand in.

Looking in and if.

You look straight.

To the back, what do you see?

A pot belly stove fed my logs?

Guess where the aluminum was being?

From that store.

On that part, so that was his only source for heat in the winter time I was up there from late January until April.

We served the warrant.

I never saw him once step outside the confines of.

His one point.

4 acres he was always there he was in there.

As an aside, so you understand what a piece.

Of work this guy.

Was he had a piece of plywood on the floor in the middle of.

The cabinet and.

We needed to urinate, move it over.

He peed on the ground underneath his cap and he cover it back up.

When he had to have a bowel movement.

He put a bunch of newspaper down, have a bowel movement, wrap it up.

And stick it in the fire and burn it.

Right?

You can imagine what that cabins cooking Snowbird.

Then we discovered an interesting thing too, right outside the cabin.

Yeah, 50 gallon bird is honey girl.

In the summertime, that's where he put all of his journeys.

Excellent because he used that to fertilize his garden.

And his neighbors couldn't understand why he would grow such big carrots.

Great deals, they were appalled when they found out.

That's his work bench inside the cabin.

We build all these devices.

That's true.

No sophistication whatsoever.

But we don't really know.

Hold my hand conquering what all the experts do.

Listen, we went to every new endpoint.

The experts that we use nearly.

There's probably so you see the Gray hooded sweatshirt hanging on the wall back there.

All these containers on these shelves all contain on making parts that he found on his floor.

Raise summertime.

This is his sleeping platform.

Almost all the way around 360 you see his stuff up saying inside front door, the edge of his soldiers. This is this sleeping platform so one is called peaceable with a grain wagon.

Like it and you see all the smudges on the wall where he leaned up against it.

'cause he's only chairs.

That thing in the.

In the middle there and it wasn't very comfortable, so it's it on there and clean up.

Gives the walk and when the fire was smoldering and it wasn't drawing correctly, all that's left will come out and.

That's what's on the wall there.

Yeah, well, the very last single.

Found in that cabin is right back there.

Now when he brought, when we when he said that he would desist.

Killing people we published his manifesto.

He reserved the right to commit acts of sabotage, and he defined that as being terrorism being killed, people he wouldn't kill anymore, but he'd still blow up buildings and bridges and infrastructure.

Well, well, this bomb was back under his bed.

He's been in there all the time I was up there building this long we suspect.

This much and we know who it.

Was going to and it was the.

Most sophisticated bomb yet that he built.

And guess what? Folks was an anti personnel bombs, 454 pieces of individual shrapnel he'd manufactured, filed down and epoxy resin in the outside that long. So contrary to what all field scientists told us, he wasn't.

Going to keep his word.

On his wall within arms for each other was a 22 and a 30 odd 6.

He also had.

A homemade zip gun.

That he's made.

He's getting ready to.

Kill people with a gun.

This is a.

Picture of the loft it.

Took nine days to search.

Is having folks the ERP people and.

The explosive bomb.

People just didn't enter the front door of the cabin with the most successful movie trapper in the world in the history of the United States.

They went around the back, went up above the cutoff bull and came into the last here.

And then work their way down.

One of the very.

Last things they search was that.

Hamilton, right in the middle.

There's a picture of.

And what was in that Hamilton?

Is snake curling Sir in 1825 to 30 typewriter 2.54 spacing or Piper style valve?

Right?

He also had two other old typewriters in there.

What do you?

Use for correspondence.

With his family want to use for correspondence for business and newspapers and what have you?

And we had our documents examined.

In DC out there into central London on at the scene, we knew that we had the correct man at that time.

This is an adjacent cabin.

The Miller cabin, which we put some agents in the last few days to ensure that.

He didn't get out of there.

The two agent man white team they were stationed in Lincoln for the last 10 days.

Watching the buses.

There's only two ways out.

Of Lincoln Mt.

If you don't have a card, he didn't.

Sorry, invested in that was when we determined he was using the bus lines.

The Rimrock Trailways E Mountain from Missoula to Great Falls at 4:00 O'clock and Rimrock Trailways West.

At 7:00 o'clock from Missoula, from Greg Foster Missoula, and we ensured that those two agents were always.

They're seeing that he didn't leave.

We also had two agents stationed in Missoula with two agents at Great Falls and watching form as we knew where he stayed, where he went.

Those places that's.

My boss Jim.

Freeman in the red, white and blue.

Going through the book and that's Terry churchy, my immediate supervisor.

This is William Scabbling, which was adjacent.

This is the inside of that Williams gathering where we held him in investigating the attention because all we had was a search warrant.

He kept asking me all the questions that can you listen.

My hand doesn't go can you take my handcuffs off?

No, and I stand up and left it on the roof, you know, and then go off and this is fresh air.

No kind of sounds like.

I'm under arrest.

Which in this instance he was.

But we didn't get authorization to.

Arresting the children electrified that night.

This is 7 out branching resort this.

Is where our.

Papers laser floater Cashman family.

We hung out there a lot because you know they got a great chicken fried steak.

And a super bar and bartender.

Orientation son-in-law was Greek and it was far enough away that we felt comfortable being there.

That's picture myself and the blue parka and Tom McDaniel from the Eleanor resident.

Agency we're changing his status right after that picture of Terry and Jim outside the cabin. They authorized the including officially under arrest at about 5:10 at night, which is what we've just done.

We took the handcuffs off and we're putting him in a transportation chain to take him to 70 miles away to helmet to booking it.

We've got to help them.

Long story.

I don't have time aligned my time reading taking the booking minimalist apartment different to the resident agency where a great battle went on because the.

Attorney and the Department of Justice in Washington DC was getting bad information from someone and he called out and told us that we were instructed that we did not have his authority to arrest this gentleman to releasing and letting go.

We take the results of the search into a grand jury and get an invite and go back.

Getting later when I told Terry.

And eight with a half.

If I gotta take him home to the.

Colonial Inn tonight and handcuffing.

For the bottom of my bed.

I'm going to.

Do it.

It took the 17 years to find out about, so it's Terry and Jim.

Through the night.

Till after 11:00 o'clock that night to get Louis Freeh out of bed to get Janet Reno off to get Janet Reno to tell this attorney, Robert smacking DOJ headquarters to back off of his order and that we were authorized to book him into jail.

That's a picture, and I think there's a big.

Story behind this.

But this is on the cover of Newsweek magazine.

There is his official arrest.

Photo after it was cleaned up a little bit.

Everybody ask somebody's cabin. His cabin is now we. We might prove my. My agents used chainsaws. Country Office foundation.

We've got which hearings front end loader loaded up on put it on skins, booted off the mountain, pulled it down, and took it down from Air Force Base and it's now there's a major exhibit and the news.

In Washington DC, so people go back there, it's back.

She's no.

Here you can experience it is 10 plus and get my club inside.

We just work with them recently and they're doing a virtual reality tour of it, based upon photographs that we provided to them and so forth and it's very interesting.

The Bureau loaned it to them after 911 because the Bureau tour had to close down, because we didn't have the man power. We got them at our headquarters to maintain our tour. The museum was opening and now. The Bureau is open. There to order off site and they went back and asked for it back and the museum said screw you it's one of our most popular exhibits.

Ok folks, that's all.