Sick and Wrong Podcast
Nazi Death Camp Porn | S&W Podcast #777
The death cultists who fantasized about Richard Ramirez inspired Dee to research the origin of the Nazi fetish which emanated from Israeli Holocaust porn fiction known as Stalags.
The Sick and Wrong Podcast is your chaperone through the depraved corners of modern life and your gateway into the comedy of the pathetic, exploring everything from internet conspiracies and the occult to true crime and paranormal phenomena.
Hosts Dee Simon and Kate Rambo cut a swath through the elite shadowy cabals and opioid-addled mass shooters that run our world to deliver a weekly dose of nihilistic satire. They wade through the weirdest of the weird, from the sex cults and brutal murders of yesteryear to the internet conspiracies of today, before they become the fake news of tomorrow. Sick and Wrong Podcast is one of the longest running indie comedy podcasts, diddling while Rome burns since 2006.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S-UWmqDvnU
Dee Simon: What was interesting in the documentary they show all these goth sluts that show up in his trial all wearing black and they got like blonde teased up 80s hair and they're just fawning over this violent serial killer, child and pensioner rapist, which is just...
Kate Rambo: With really bad teeth as well.
Dee: Oh God, he had terrible teeth.
Kate: And he had BO, he stank.
Dee: Yeah, they said he smelled like a goat. Yeah, that's several police officers. Like. Oh, yeah. That guy smelled, smelled up the room.
Kate: Don't think that's an insult to... Should we give the goat that? Be like, hey, buddy, I smell great.
Dee: I wonder if that was intentional to be like close, you know, like Satan.
Kate: Oh yeah, that could be like.
Dee: Yeah, I wonder if that was that was it. So I was wondering about him. What do you think? These people, these women, these admirers, obviously know who this man is, what he's done. And yet they still show up. What? Why? What do you think the attraction is? And I put a lot of thought into this. It's it's the forbidden fantasy. The verboten? Yeah. This subversive indulgence in the ultimate evil as a form of Eroticism. You know, they're like getting off. I'm like this guy who's so evil, but the weirdest thing about it is, like, you sexualize this guy. But look at that ******* grill. At those. You see a smile if if his last name wasn't Ramirez, I would have thought he was British.
Kate: Oh, David. That's a cheap shot at us.
Dee: Can't help it Ernie.
Dee: But. Anyway, getting back to to the forbidden fantasy of Richard Ramirez and the subversive Eroticism of that guy, it's very similar. Drawn a parallel here to the topic of the show, to the pornographic appeal of Nazi iconography.
Unknown Speaker: Mm.
Dee: Look at that, people. Know fetishize Nazis. Is that hole for bent forbidden fantasy, especially in like the S&M world? It's like the, you know, the evil Nazi ********** in the SS outfit with riding crop and the black leather boots.
Kate: Of course.
Dee: It's it's, it's. Strange to look into that and. So anyway, this this topic is actually suggested by a listener. A guy named, well, his e-mail address name. Like a lot of people that e-mail the show, they never actually use their names. Like make a pseudonym up. Know who cares? You think B Simon's my real name?
Kate: They are ashamed.
Dee: I think they're just ashamed. Even the pseudonym is too close for people to reveal. It's too close to my identity. Anyway, this guy wrote in and suggested this topic of stalks stalagm, which is a short lived genre of Nazi exploitation. Like Holocaust ****, books like these are like books. what? ****** fiction? of of Death camps and what happened in these death camps and the weird thing about it, these books flourished in Israel in like late 1950s, early 1960s, very short lived time.
Unknown Speaker: Oh.
Dee: Mean they only lasted a few years before, like Israeli censors shut it down. But very popular in Israel and written by Israel. Please.
Kate: Wow.
Dee: Yeah.
Kate: So they're taking the power back.
Dee: In a sense, I mean, we're gonna get to that. Like what? The appeal of this forbidden fantasy. But during my research it's not only just there the stalags which were the literature, you know, the books, the short stories. But then there's also. You know, through 60s and 70s, there's like these Nazi exploitation film, like people might have heard of, have heard the most famous one. Ilse she Wolf of BSS. You know, and so, you know, I had to.
Kate: And the night water. A great bill.
Dee: Knight Porter was Knight Porter's. More like more art house type of film like that.
Kate: Is Mark, but it is very very sexy.
Dee: More artistic. Yeah. Whereas I also was kind of ****. Know I. A lot of research the other night and I, you know, had to watch it. Research.
Kate: Yes.
Dee: Had to watch it several times. You know, pants were not always on during those viewings. I think the rabbi would have been very disappointed.
Kate: I look like Pima. I've seen it a yeah, I used to watch it when I was 1617.
Dee: I'm sure you've seen it a bunch.
Kate: All the time. Great though. Highly recommend that.
Dee: Were you also doing research?
Kate: Yes, this week I have been researching all these Nazi **** films. I'm not coming. Expert on what happens.
Dee: An expert on Nazi point. So yeah, this Nazi death camp born was a thing still kind of is a thing. But a lot of it stemmed from these stalks of the late 1950s, early 1960s, and these things. They kind of. They proliferated after the trial of Eichmann. But then stop shortly. 'Cause it was shut down by the Israeli government, which is exceedingly puritanical. Like these Israeli Government, especially at that time **** was banned outright banned.
Unknown Speaker: Really.
Dee: No **** allowed in that country.
Kate: Oh wow. I never did that.
Dee: So these books were like the only sexual outlet for these, like adolescent teens. I think that that's why they're so popular. So these books stalags, Stalag, Stalag, they took their name from the Nazi prison camps in which they were set. And so there is basically just pornographic paperbacks with, like, really kind of lurid covers you. You know, usually we'll show you some covers in a second, but of, you know, book some Nazi women with whips and boots and hats like whipping like a bound male prisoner. But they all had like these very Nazi themes. Most of them were were pornographic accounts of imprisonment. The weird thing is, is is almost always allied soldiers, usually British soldiers, but just in American troops.
Kate: Tommy.
Dee: Yeah. Sexual brutalization by female SS guards. And then the prisoners eventual revenge, always turning the tables here, which usually consisted of the rape and murder of their tormentors,
Kate: Yeah. Right.
Dee: Just kind of turn the. So here's a typical premise of a A. So during the Second World War, an allied pilot gets shot down over Germany. He ends up in a prison of war camp, hence the name Stalag a, a contraction of the German word. Stalag our hero is then brutally treated in the camp by books and female guards who sadistically torture him but also use him as a sex slave. And the novel ends up with a protagonist taking revenge, ultimately on his tormentors.
Kate: I have a full on chub.
Dee: Yeah, I. I can see you getting into this.
Kate: Yeah, I would definitely read this book.
Dee: They well, there are many of. So the first Stalag was actually Stalag 13, and it, and it was sold out instantly. That newspaper kiosk at Tel Aviv bus stations in like the early 60s. It was written by a 23 year old named Eli Kadar and it was published under the pen name Mike Badan. Most reviews us names. I think part of it is because they wanted to create this ruse, that it was written by someone who actually was there. Like, this is a true account of what happened by this prisoner of war.
Kate: I see.
Dee: So a lot of these stalags have the same authors like Mike Baden, Victor Boulder, Kim Rachman, Erik Lindstrom, Mike Longshot and Ralph Butcher.
Kate: Like long shot.
Dee: Yeah, Ralph butcher.
Kate: That's the British guy Ralph Butcher. From.
Dee: Britain, wasn't he an inglorious ********? But yeah, these were like, Recurring characters, but also most often the narrators, because I think they're trying to like, you know, have this ruse that these guys lived this experience like this is a memoir, not a work of fiction, but it turned out that, you know, they they said, you know, it's like. Lot of these would be like, you know, for the first time in Hebrew. You know, it's like this is a superb translation. This was a distinctly Israeli genre. These are all published and written by Israeli authors. So these, I mean, these were Israeli produced books.
Unknown Speaker: Oh.
Dee: Weren't. They weren't. First person accounts of what happened.
Kate: The fact.
Dee: More or less, but so the foreign sounding pseudonyms were taken for commercial reasons. tad like legitimacy.
Unknown Speaker: Mm.
Dee: They who wrote it. Also, I think what they're trying to do is sort of like evade the sensors. So if it was like a memoir, it wasn't like **** fiction.
Kate: It's very clever, yeah.
Unknown Speaker:
Dee: So, Stalag 13, the first of the series, tells the story of Mike Baden, a British pilot held in German POW camp. His experiences seem to follow the standard course of wartime captivity captivity until one day. The SS staff is unexpectedly replaced by another unit. I mean, there's nothing really peculiar about the. Nothing exceptional, but the physical fact that they were all women. Two platoons of female SS Stormtroopers wearing. Very tight pants, shiny leather boots and vest from cloth that stretch across tall and upright breasts with pointy *******.
Kate: Pointing ******* you can. This is a man writing this, yeah.
Dee: Well, I think they had a particular demographic that they were targeting. Beneath the caps, they had like short army haircuts, but the hair was fine and the next feminine and slim.
Unknown Speaker: Google.
Dee: Before long, the camp is run exclusively by these female officers, who dominated the men through menace, torture and sexual abuse, and even as they plot rebellion, the soldiers are compelled to obey their sex craze. Dominators, with a mixture of pleasure. And revulsion.
Unknown Speaker: Hmm.
Dee: So finally the tables are turned on. Their vicious tormentors, and they take revenge by no by means like, no less brutal than what they actually experience themselves. And that's typically they all have the same narrative structure. All of these books
Unknown Speaker: Right. Yeah.
Dee: And then the crazy thing is how successful they. Stalag 13 had four editions within a year, so more than 25,000 copies of considered bestseller at the time. And then they eventually expanded into settings beyond just German camps. But camps of a similar nature in Japan, Russia, Syria. So there's, like, geisha Stalag, Stalag Stalingrad, Stalag of experiments, and desert Stalag. So let's check out a couple of these pictures of the provocative covers of these books. Can see how they would appeal to an Israeli teen.
Kate: Oh yeah, they're like the men's adventures magazines from the 50s, aren't they in the 40s?
Dee: So look at this. There a lot of it was kind of like a perversion of those magazines.
Kate: Yeah. So.
Dee: Here you go. Book some Nazi female guards. I love their. It's just like I'm just gonna wear my panties. They got their arm bands. Got the Nazi armbands, but it's like. Blonde *** **** just tied up. British soldier forced.
Kate: And the whip.
Dee: And forced to obey the will of his tormentors. Who's the next one? Here's another one. This is great.
Kate: Oh. This the 13. So this is the first one.
Dee: Yeah. Is the actual cover. Is Stalag 13.
Kate: Very, very sexy.
Dee: Yeah, it's like you have two one. What a blonde and a? Here they both have a lot of cleavage. We're the black SS uniforms. And there's yeah, she's got a she's got a knee in the guy's back, gun to his throat, and you can see the Hebrew says, like, translated in Hebrew for the first time.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: So oh, here's another. Yeah, I like this one. I like this one. 'cause. She's got like. She's got like the SS jacket on, but she's screaming, just cleaning the guy down.
Unknown Speaker: And she's.
Kate: Like a wolf. Yeah, she's a she wolf.
Dee: Yeah, and there's a lot of a lot of the stalags had these two, like the women with these riding crops, just whipping the men, you know, the men just prostate on the ground. Now here's another one like. This is probably what happens when they get the better of their tormentors. This guy turned the tables. Now he's gonna start whipping her.
Kate: Yeah.
Unknown Speaker: Yeah.
Kate: Look at how ugly.
Dee: He is so the Star Wars. No, he's hideous. So the Star Wars, I mean they're like #1 through 1000 and then the titles. And then instead of just being like stalking 13, stalking 12, they became like Stalag of the Devils Stalag of the Wolves. Deathstalk. But the female antagonists are often portrayed with with much detail not only about their physical. You know, obviously their books them and they're wearing really tight clothes with their pointed *******, but also their emotional states, their personal background, their motivation, their desires. And some of them. Yeah, we're actually we're fictional counterparts based on real figures of the Holocaust, such as Ilso coke. You know, the Witch of Buchenwald or Irma Grazia. Who the hyena of? Who we actually recover her in this weeks? Overkill. Probably the most sadistic of the female guards.
Kate: She's a sexual sadist as well as opposed to like, I'll suck ****. Who is? There's definitely something mental, mental problem. She's psychotic.
Dee: I think she's psychotic. Yeah. Half.
Kate: Emma was. She was an ice queen. Was. She I would be of in fear of her if I had been in. Camps, if I.
Dee: And and, like her cold, emotionless eyes too, at her trial just accepting her death. But The thing is with her too, which is also alarming, she was like 21.
Kate: She was.
Dee: It's a.
Kate: She died.
Dee: I mean, barely, like, you know, barely an adult. But she just did horrible things. So the thing that's interesting about the stalags was also kind of surprising. Never featured Jewish characters. Apart from an occasional reference to the Jews in a few of the stalags you know, but they refrain from involving Jews in any of these stories.
Kate: OK.
Dee: And I mean the focus was mostly on like Anglo-Saxon versus the axis of evil. No, it's interesting to think about it. Maybe it's because they reckon that as long as they could portray German brutality against British or American prisoners, the books could pass as, like, distasteful. and violin. But they would avoid, you know, censorship. Because, I mean, think about it these. This is like what late 50s, early 60's, the wounds of the Holocaust were still fresh.
Kate: I. Oh, completely fresh.
Dee: Mean they were. You know, they they were hunting down the Nazis and trying them, you know, at this point. So I couldn't imagine like his publisher is in Israel being like, yeah, let's have a few Jewish. Is just being like whipped by these these merciless guards.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: I don't think I would have gone down. D2L. So as we were talking about before the stalagmite, the first Pope novels to combine like sex and swastikas the these, you know, the inspiration came from the American men magazines that appeared in the late 50s and throughout the 60s. Popular in the US. And these torture mags kind of took the concept of, like, men's adventure to the extreme. And so they had, like, stories of an unlimited violence alongside kind of sexy illustrations. Like a lot of the covers, I mean, the men typically, Rescue damsels in distress. we're being, you know, tortured by the Nazis. And so they go in and save them. And I remember, like, I had a lot of these. As a kid. Like these, you know, the anglos versus, well, a lot of them were, like Pope novels.
Kate: The other events around here.
Dee: Of just and like graphic novels, but like Anglos versus the Nazis, you know, and they usually would have like, damsels in distress. And that the hero was on his way to rescue them from the evil Nazis. And so. But it was weird in the 60s, it kind of took a turn and like the damsels in distress were kind of taken by like like a. Male evil person was like a torturer. So it's like in that word like Third Reich, where daily I was swastikas and so it kind of became like the men were being tortured by these evil mengla type figures. And they were getting revenge and killing them all and escaping out of the camp. You know, seizing, turn the tables and flipping it on the on the Nazis.
Kate: I can smell the testosterone from.
Dee: It maybe wonder, though, why? Know why did the. I mean, I wonder if, like. Did the did you want to have like, you know, female torturers be to depict, like, the rise of feminism?
Kate: Well, yeah, in the 60s it could, because suddenly women were now very sexual as well because of the pill.
Dee: In this city.
Unknown Speaker: Yeah.
Dee: But also I think like the threat to masculinity that feminism presented.
Kate: Of course, yeah.
Dee: Maybe that's why they were like, OK, we're gonna.
Kate: Yeah, that's definitely part of it. Would say for sure.
Dee: But the US torture magazines were mostly about male dominance on other men.
Unknown Speaker: Mm.
Dee: But the stalas? Definitely had a clear preference of female dominance over males, so maybe that's was the influence of feminism, or they saw the rise of feminism and that's why they,
Unknown Speaker: Yeah.
Dee: Presented these the females as the antagonists, but it's the same kind of thing. It's like, The unfolding of a hero protagonist exploits an overcoming evil and reincating the order of things. But the twist with the starlugs as opposed to the American predecessors was the rush of the evil involved acts of transgression. And illicit pleasure. But yeah, it's the same narrative structure with every single book, which I think is kind of par for the course for adolescent young adult literature. But there is.
Kate: I have read Virginia Hill books, yes.
Dee: Well, there's like the initial downfall captivity, transgression, breakout, revenge, and at the end, all of them ended up in revenge and the weird thing about it, which is also kind of indicative with the names of all the female Nazis. Like you know, Irma was called the hyena vousschitz. Then later on that, the beast of Belson, the beauty or the ***** of the ***** of Belson. And I think Ilso was the what?
Kate: The *****. *****.
Dee: Wolf of Buchenwald.
Kate: Yeah, she was the *****, wasn't she at?
Unknown Speaker: Did you?
Kate: ***** of Buca mold.
Dee: Yeah. So they but a. But she was a lot of them were, like, portrayed with, like, bestial. Ity to name these these Nazi women, like the Nazi female Nazi guards stalags, you know, kept those names and more. More the Nazis. Were, I think, part of it. Like you know, they portrayed them as like peace animals and they had like, animal attributes underneath human skin. Female characters were likened to wolves and snakes and monsters. Ilsa the she wolf of the s s. Know her? Hyena but then part of it. I think it. A weighted like rationalize what they did. You know, I think they were like these Nazis could have been human. Had to have been. Because a human never could have inflicted such torture and evil on another human. Yeah, I don't think they can even, like rationalize that.
Kate: Especially when it comes to women as well, I mean.
Dee: Yeah.
Kate: Yeah, I think.
Dee: That's amplified with women.
Kate: Next, there it totally is.
Dee: Yeah. Do you think like someone like Irma could be as just pathologically evil and so cruel and sadistic?
Kate: At the age of 20 as well.
Dee: It seems at age of 20 just seems so like, you know, antithetical to a woman's nature. Like what we so I think that's why we're like, she's got to be a beast, she. Yeah, And then the other weird thing about the new style eggs. The male Nazis are usually portrayed as like, refined and effeminate compared to the brutish women. Yeah, it's like the change of the guards. You know, it was almost like a transformation of not only command the gender role.
Kate: Right.
Dee: It's like a gender bending bear.
Kate: Is that also putting down the Nazi zoo to be like the men?
Dee: That's kind of weird.
Kate: Very weak. The Nazi men, is it like a bit of like sub context there isn't there?
Dee: I think that was.
Unknown Speaker: I.
Dee: Think that's part of it is just like, you know, they're very effeminate and weak. You know, it's the women who really were in charge. But so it's interesting to also note that the sex scenes in these books were actually like really conservative. Kind of following like Hollywood. Kind of following like.
Kate: Hey I've had a job and like what? Are you doing this to me?
Dee: Well, it kind of followed like Hollywood, you know, cinema, you know, cinema conventions at the time like.
Kate: Oh, would the cover just pun away? Yes.
Dee: Yeah, I was like, you know, before there was, like, you know, heavy petting. And then there's a fade out and then it starts up as if nothing, actually. Oh, and then?
Kate: And it cuts back to them. Both smoking in bed.
Dee: Smoking in bed and the guy isn't wearing a shirt and she's got the covers pulled over. Yeah, it's.
Kate: Oh, I can't believe that it's it's all for play. Action.
Dee: Well, I mean, maybe in the puritanical Society of Israel in the 60s where porn's banned? Maybe that's all all they needed, you know?
Kate: It's saucy enough for them back then, probably, yeah.
Dee: Sassy enough. That's the thing they they give an example here in Stalag 13. It says here's a typical sex scene after drugging 2 prisoners into submission. The guard demonstrated for them what she wanted and they pleased her, squeaking like hairy rats hanging from the vibrating body of an eel.
Kate: That's from. That was Nazi erotica.
Dee: It's. It's not a penthouse form, all right. It's not a penthouse. There's no like, graphic detail ******** here, but yeah, I mean, I think that's all it took. And these books, as I mentioned before, underground best sellers really popular. Amongst like the adolescent males, let's show some more covers of here's a few more. Just to get an idea of how sexy these books are. So, but I mean you can kind of tell how they would appeal to teenage boys.
Kate: This is my favorite look at those Black Panthers with the swastika on their foreheads.
Dee: For the. Are those like people swastika yarmulkes that they're wearing?
Kate: They are little sostakus school caps. I like these these babes pushing the Cole.
Dee: That what this they look like it. Yeah, look at the babes are are working.
Kate: Cole tricks.
Dee: I wonder if this is like we turn the tables and now the women are doing the work and the work came.
Kate: Well, yeah. She's like, yeah.
Dee: Oh yeah, here's one. Look at. She's got the dog. A lot of them. Who is the Nazi female guard that control the dogs? Is that in, in, in Belson or is?
Kate: They.
Dee: In.
Kate: They all had like access to dogs, but the one who's most famous because she was called the woman with the dogs is Joanna Barman.
Dee: But maybe think about.
Kate: Very evil. She was in Belson.
Dee: You think about, you know, these these guys never had any access to ****. No. There's no Playboy magazine in Israel at the time, so these first Israeli born teens were coming of age. Know they're hitting adolescents and Seeing a cover like this, you. Wait to this.
Kate: You could rank to the covers alone.
Unknown Speaker: Yeah.
Dee: Pictures. Yeah, this is one of the only stylists actually showed the Fuhrer that just showed Hitler. Most of them would never show that you Muslim showed like a book. Some female guard. But these solid provided that sexual titillation. A society that completely.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: You know, it's like and. And their parents were Holocaust survivors who just, you know, they pretty much just like repressed all of that. They didn't discuss anything about these camps. Didn't want to revisit that time. Yeah, these Jews.
Kate: As I say, was it not taught in school?
Dee: No, not not at that. I mean, it's first of all, it only happened. It just recently happened and obviously I think they probably mention what happened, but I don't think they went into details, I don't think.
Kate: But yes, yes, that's what he is.
Dee: Talking about like, oh, these female guards would have whips. And like with these men and, you know, whip the female troops and joy divisions. I don't think that was, that wasn't commonplace at the time. No one really knew about any of. And. Knew that like 6,000,000 Jews. They knew that, you know, Jews now had a homeland in Israel. But their parents never talked. Any of this stuff? What's interesting here is pretty descriptive explanation of why these these books are so popular. A writer named Andrew. He's O'hea here, I guess. I don't know. Israeli name I can't ****. He said Stalags were “a dream-world, midnight version of the Eichmann revelations, … a Stockholm-syndrome equation of evil with eros and a juvenile revenge fantasy, all rolled into one.”
And it's. I mean, at the time you you most people didn't know anything about what really happened the Holocaust till the Eichmann trial and that's what jettisoned these books into being so popular so. If you're that interested in the topic. There's a documentary by the recent documentary came out in like 20. Something, Ari. He's a Israeli filmmaker. He directed Doc, called Stalag Holocaust and *********** in Israel. He says the Holocaust pics that he saw as he was growing up were the first pictures he'd ever seen of a naked woman. Whether these photographs were corpses at Bergen Belsen or women forced to strip before a mass shooting in Latvia. These Holocaust images were the first time any you know, any boy saw ***** ***** and you know, I got to see the same holds true for me. Mean growing up in southern Africa during the 80's, **** completely banned. They call them blue movies. You'd never be. You'd have never have access to it. Like I couldn't go to my. Divorced father's night stand and pull out a penthouse that wouldn't happen in, in, in South Africa. So when I was like 8 years old, vividly remembered. Watching 'cause, my father watched all the Nazi, all the Holocaust movies, woods of war, the. what? Show up? Like all the Holocaust movies we we had to watch it because my dad wanted us to learn.
Kate: Show what I was about to say.
Dee: Dad was very adamant about that, about learning what happened, and so we'd watch this and I remember, you know, seeing like. Staring at the ******* like while the Nazis were forcing, you know, these women to strip, I was staring at the ******* and it was giving my little 8 year old shrimp **** a shame *****. I gotta say, I mean, I couldn't. I didn't understand. Was confused by it, but I was just. It's like it's got a nice wreck there.
Kate: Yeah, I remember definitely seeing Holocaust documentaries. When I was younger and it probably would have been the first time that I'd have seen normal people naked.
Dee: I'm usually like a National Geographic or something like that, people.
Kate: Yeah, I mean, but that's yeah. But to see like that amount of people naked as well before they're getting shot. I was watching Holocaust documentaries and reading books about the Holocaust. And I was like. Ten, yeah.
Dee: Shows who are confronted with these images in these in these. So here's a clip from Ari Lip skers film Starlogs Holocaust and *********** in Israel. Me start this up in age. However the National Library. In Jerusalem, you can make an appointment with them and go.
Kate: Yeah. Wow.
Dee: The gills.
Unknown Speaker: Wow.
Dee: In a room with a tub of Vaseline. But you can. But you. You can actually go and check out the actual books 'cause they they preserve them. But that the weird thing? And then the documentary does a good job of explaining like the attraction you know, and the sexual titillation of these books. A male fan said it was the only **** *** material around. Another interviewee remembers a segment where the genitals of a prisoner are smeared in honey by a female guard to attract Wasps. I mean, is that not sexual?
Kate: Completely sexual.
Dee: this conservative era at that time? I mean, this is like the only sexual material you could get the first like.
Unknown Speaker: And.
Dee: You know, adolescent sexual encounters that these kids had. So what's interesting to find out about it is why these books became so popular. Mean like what? I can. You know, it's like you see, you know, there's no ****. And like where it came from. But like the fact that they're even written like, what was the inspiration behind it and where it came from? So the books emerge from this culture of silence that surrounded the Holocaust. Particularly in Israel, no one really. I mean, no one talked about the lurid details and just said it was an atrocity. 6,000,000 Jews died brutally. And by the hands of this evil this axis power of the Nazis, but no one really said what went down in the camps. You know, there was like Elie Wiesel, who wrote night and Primo Levy. And these people that wrote like.
Kate: Mm.
Dee: Hmm. Almost like a flowery description. Like it was almost like a like a French existentialist like Camus or something describing like. The the experience of being in the camps but not saying like, Oh yeah, they're with us and pull their pants down and did horrible things. So for most of the adolescents, they couldn't really, you know, you didn't really know anything about what really happened in the. Until they read the book House of Dolls. Came out in 1950.
Unknown Speaker: OK.
Dee: This is a novel by writer Yahiel Dennur. It was a Holocaust survivor who run under the pseudonym. Consett Neck 135633 we have a picture of cassette care actually been searching for this guy's book. This book, House of Dolls. Like $200 like to get our original.
Unknown Speaker: Wow.
Dee: Yeah, really hard to. So there he is. There's cassette neck.
Kate: Is that the Eichmann trial?
Dee: Yeah, this is actually from the Eichmann trial.
Unknown Speaker: Yeah.
Dee: He's he's kind of notorious for the trial because he gave this like. Rambling, he fainted and he gave this, like, rambling curate against Eichmann and Nazis.
Kate: The guy who faints.
Unknown Speaker: Yeah.
Dee: Then fainted. But the book either I've been looking for the book. So Consentneck is a German acronym for Concentration Slugger, which is a concentration camp, and in in camp slain they just called the ACAC.
Unknown Speaker: Yeah.
Dee: Ia there's eichmann. There's echman behind glass.
Unknown Speaker: Mm.
Dee: Cassettek is a prisoner and 135633. A reference to the number that was tattooed on his arm. And actually it's Birkenau.
Kate: OK. Yes.
Dee: So Kassenic was in Auschwitz for two years. Was a prisoner. As part of the trial here, he they brought out an actual the prison guard and they asked him like is this what is this? The. This is what you wore and he's like, yeah, that's what you wore in planet Auschwitz. He describes it as like a separate planet, like a set. Like, almost like a multiverse. It was a separate universe. Of what?
Kate: I. Yeah, I can see.
Dee: I think it's a way that he can rationalize what he experienced. So house and dolls was actually his second book and this this came out before the Eichmann trial proceeded. Eichmann trial proceeded Stalags and it was a wild success. It was translated into a dozen languages, and so in the last 50 pages, the hero's sister. Daniella becomes a prostitute in the Women's labour camp. She's forced to join the camps. Freudenbatelong. I can't even say in German, but Joy, Division and which is actually which it's it's a. A group of prostitutes served as the German sold. Also, where the famous band got their name? The girls selected for Joy Division have failed to military ***** tattooed between their breasts.
Kate: Wow.
Dee: Tattooing really happened. Although the brothel of Auschwitz was freaking only by capos, another privileged prisoners, not by the s s. The girls suffer an ardent and brutal lesbian boss named Elsa, who forces them to strip naked and then bends them over a chair and lashes them. Is in that. This is his description of the book. I mean, no one read. There's nothing published like this at the time. For Israeli kids, you know, this is exciting. You gotta admit, I mean, you know, it's like it influenced directly influenced the styling series that came out of the schlocky sex and violence pulp novels that, you know, that were looking at before.
Kate: Standalone, yes.
Dee: But this book predated the stalags by I don't know what, like five years. It wasn't seen as being, you know, Pope schlocky sex novel, like pornographic novel was considered the 1st. Writer who wrote in Hebrew about the terrible things that happened that he experienced first hand in the war. In a sense, you could almost say he was like the Bukowski of Holocaust literature.
Kate: So are you saying that he maybe took information and spun it a little?
Dee: Well, you know, he probably exaggerated certain details, but he he genuinely experienced this and expressed it loudly.
Kate: That's what I mean.
Dee: He didn't hold back he.
Unknown Speaker: Yeah.
Dee: He wasn't trying to express it like I'm not trying to disparage Eli Ros. Enberg, but you read it. You're not reading about, you know, women getting bent over chairs and being whipped. Your hearing's. Yeah. You're hearing more of, like, you know, a beautiful but horrific depiction of of, of torture, but told almost from, like, an existentialist point of view.
Kate: And whipped.
Dee: Whereas I think Kathy. Neck was. It was like as a realist, like a pragmatist. Like what he experienced, yeah.
Kate: Yeah, it was given the raw facts.
Dee: The Eichmann trial proved a pivotal turning point for the Israeli perception of Holocaust survivors because the horrors of the camps were examined in in graphic detail and on television. Mm. And so donor Cassettenec was a witness at the. And he was known publicly already for this book and his testimony about Auschwitz and him. Rambling about the camp and the ****** of the camp and fainting. Yeah, you. Right in front of, we saw Eichmann previously, but Eichmann was behind Glass. And he saw this man like, you know, in front of him, just like gesticulating wildly and screaming at him. And then just fainting. Yeah, you you can see that and very provocative of all the witnesses at the trial.
Kate: That footage is is in. It's on YouTube as well for anyone. Wants to watch it.
Dee: Mean this. That event gripped the Jewish world in 1961. And he's like the Israeli public. You know, the figure of the Israeli public with that would remember most vividly. You know, face him directly in his glass booth. And so when he was asked by the prosecutor at the Aikman trial about why he hid his identity behind the pseudonym cassette Nick, he claims it was not a pen name. I don't regard myself as a writer and a composer of literary material. This is a chronicle of the planet of Auschwitz. Was there for about two years. There was not like it is here on Earth. Every fraction of a minute passed on a different scale of time and in the inhabitants of this planet had no names. They had no parents, nor did they have any children. There they didn't dress in the way we dress. They were not. There they did not give. They breathed, according to a different law of. They didn't live, nor did they die according to laws of this world. They were on a they were human skeletons and their name and number was cassette. In their prisoners? Yeah. So. And then they were like, well, is this what you wore?
Kate: Wow.
Dee: He's like, oh, yeah, that's what we wore in planet Auschwitz. You know, and so they should much have been traumatic and be like, oh, great, get to get to see that again. Striped pajamas.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: what's interesting? He wrote a book later, which I've also been trying to track down, called Schwetti, which is it's called a vision, and what it is like under LSD treatment. He had, like in the 60s, he went under LSD to to revisit the trauma.
Kate: I know about that. I've heard this.
Dee: And talk about what actually happened. And I yeah, one of the things he said that when the traumatic memories that were brought on by the trial was the eyes of those being led to the gas chambers, he said. Can see them, and they're staring at me. Just every single person staring at me. No life in their eyes. In fact.
Kate: Has it so the books haven't been sorry, but the books haven't been reprinted.
Dee: No, you well. House of Dolls was reprinted in the 80s, and you can find you can find it there for a little bit cheaper than, but the original manuscripts are like $200 or something.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: Sweetie, you can find, though, you know, like 50-60 bucks for like, a hard copy. I did get AI did find a copy of this book atrocity. Which is about auspicious there, but that that was the thing. I mean, a lot of. So at the time his books were actually read in Israeli high schools as an account of what happened to Holocaust. And I think that's, I think that's kind of like you're reading somet. Like that and it's, you know, Stalag is just an expansion of that. But many Jewish historians, now, when they look back at, are very critical of cassettenec and how he wrote about what happened in the camps. They said that he mixed graphic violence with sentimental. Much like the Pope novels, astalogues and distorted history in the in the process, in a sense, they said he wrote Holocaust **** rather than a true account of Shoah. He turned shoa into a spectacle, just as it's like showing grotesque scene painting rather than describing.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: The true horror of what occurred there.
Kate: I think he is describing the true horror because they're definitely there is a sexual element to their nazi's. No denying it. The Nazis there is sex there, and they indeed had. Had ****** in the camps, the camp commandants. Were all fluffing each other.
Dee: Yeah. No, the SS were very lustful. They had ******. Everyone was. I mean, didn't we're saying an overkill that like Mengla didn't give herpes or gonorrhea, syphilis?
Kate: See for this picture. Belson, who gave? Yeah, so.
Dee: There's several women, yeah. No, they were definitely. There's a lot of ******* going on these fans.
Kate: So I think it's. Important aspect that probably should be taught in school is that the kind of overt sexualism about them. Think it's something that should be? Be ashamed of our hidden.
Dee: Well, I think, well, what's interesting about it is the attitude towards subscribing the Holocaust and explaining what happened. Holocaust. Kind of. So in the first few decades right after the war, the show was often, at least in Israel, a theme for fantasies of violence, perversion. Degradation in a sense, I think they were trying to. Degrade this character. The Nazis like these are beasts. These are animals, these sexual creatures that they were, you know, devoid of any humanity. But later on it became an an occasion for high speculations about God.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: And man and man's cruelty towards one another.
Unknown Speaker: Eaton.
Dee: The destiny of the West. You know, I think I think that was that was the shift and that's kind of what like Elie Wiesel and preceding authors authors like Primo Levy and other people who wrote about the Holocaust. Us didn't go into like the lower detail of cassette. But what's what's interesting is his book is still respected. Gotta. There's a literary prize, given his name. Still part of the high school curriculum. But why? Stalags be reviled, but his books revered.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: And I think that's what a lot of critics are. It's like so, if we're reading house and dolls in high school, then why are we reading Stalag 13?
Kate: Because they're they're not real. Stalks. Are ****.
Dee: Well, that's what they're claiming. A lot of what happened in his books, he got sednik books. Factuality is also a bit sketchy, they. One of the doubtful plot points in the House of Dolls is the placement of a Jewish woman and Auschwitz, so-called pleasure block. They said though the death camp did have brothel of sex slaves. And Jewish women were often raped by the Nazis. The actual. You know, pleasure blocks would never have a Jew Jew there. Had, like, you know, German **** or German ******.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: And so they said that this is kind of a, you know? Bit deceptive. He's obviously exaggerating a lot of facts for the book. Maybe he. You know, maybe he's a little bit of artistic license there. Other survivors and historians say that the that these that his books along with the Star Wars, did a lot of damage. You know, it's it's they portrayed the Holocaust as being ****. And sensationalistic and feeds of voyeuristic desire to see atrocities and fantasize about them. The rather to like learn from it.
Kate: But of course, there's a voyeuristic aspect to it. It's like there's a voyeuristic aspect to all. Like it's like how we were. I was saying that I want to see the true crime photos of **** *** ****** women. You want to be the ****** because it helps you understand by seeing this footage.
Dee: Understand what happened.
Kate: By seeing this shocking footage, naked people.
Dee: Yeah, but you have to wait for 30 minutes afterwards.
Kate: Well, that depends on what type of person you are.
Unknown Speaker: You are.
Dee: But I don't. I mean reading through like the more I read about him and obviously I haven't read the book, but. Kat Sutnick was there like I experienced it and he was describing it. Describing his own experience, in fact, one of the one of the passages I read about him mengla because Kostennik was a twin. He and his twin brother were both there and he was like, I don't know, in his late teens, Menlo passed him over.
Unknown Speaker: And.
Dee: Claimed that you know, though he was a walking skeleton, which there's a term they use called Muscle Man, which is like you're nearing death. Like death is near 'cause. You're walking skeleton. Mingle spared him.
Kate: So men, yeah.
Dee: He said he sent something indestructible in his eyes. Which is kind of strange because you think like, oh, I'm going to, you know, destroy him. But he's not creating.
Kate: Wow. Spared by the Angel of Death.
Dee: Yeah. But so after after the EICHMAN trial and people heard about a lot of these graphic depictions of the true horror that went on there. This Stalag just took off, and in popularity broke all records, publishing records hundreds of thousands of copies were sold at these kiosks. You know, at Tel Aviv bus station. I. Mean think about. I think a lot of people were dealing with trauma and maybe this is one way to to to deal with it, to cope with what happened. Like young men identified with these American and British soldiers who are in prison in the camps and took revenge. I think a lot of them, you know, didn't understand like how weak their parents were. Why'd you give into the? Why'd you just, you know, obediently March into a gas chamber? Like, why not fight back?
Kate: Yeah, because it hadn't been taught to them why the Nazis were so powerful.
Dee: Yeah.
Kate: So yeah.
Dee: I don't think they had a a true understanding. Mean they're also adolescents. So here it. These books, these stolen, must have been very. You know, it's like, here's a British soldier who's, you know, flipping the bill here on hitting the tables, taking the power back and ****** his tormentors.
Kate: Yeah, taking the power back.
Dee: You know, and so. These stalags. Ended up like kind of morphing into like a fictional counterpart of Eikkonte testimony and so the Eroticism not only revolves around the doesn't only revolve around the act of sexual intercourse. What's interesting about? 'Cause I mentioned before that the picture of sexual intercourse is very conservative. Like almost. Like Hollywood conventions, they're really going to, but it's the Eroticism of dominance, humiliation and servitude. The state of masochistic aspect of these books. And I think that's what kind of really popular to these kids. Is it's weird to think about like you know, they obviously probably didn't know what S&M was, but they were turned on by it. Yeah, they were turned on by the side of, you know, this ilso coke, blonde books and books and women. And like, you know, leather SS outfit with a riding crop like. Whipping these guys, putting a boot in your back.
Kate: Oh, come on. Who is it?
Dee: That's hot. Hot. So I read a kind of a a very academic type essay on this. I got into this. It's called the Holocaust, perversions, the Stalag, Pulp Fiction, the Eichmann trial. And they just kind of were showing the correlation. The success of the stalagmites from the Eichmann trial. It's by a couple professors named Penczewski and Brand, and they say that the Stalwags constituted a text upon which Israeli youth negotiated issues of power and identity. Via V their parent's generation and this new Zionist ideology and part of the because Zionism is so new. Mean they just moved to. They were the first generation of Israelis, so they're technically the new Jews. You know, when they were, they were strong. They're. They fought off the Arabs, you know, they had, like, the six day war and all that, and they're the opposite.
Kate: Right.
Dee: The old diaspora Jew from Europe. Who were weak and cowardly? You know, when we're dominated by these these Nazi forces and feminine in a sense,
Kate: Yeah, I can totally understand it.
Dee: So here's the. And I mean, I kind of do feel like this is sort of a convoluted academic hypothesis, but I think it could very well be true. Subconsciously. The Stalag was like the new Jew taking place. The new powerful Jew taking place in the old Week 1.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: Like a generation. You know, scenes of women dominating men and the reversal of weak and strong kind of suggested the roles being reversed. You know, and then then the whole question of like what would we have done if we were there? Yeah, we'd have gotten revenge. And finally here the other thing about the starlugs, it's almost like the starlugs kind of prove the right to punish. And kind of justify that, which is what the Israelis were. I mean, they were like, hunting down these Nazis, hanging them, and so bringing Eichmann to trial. Mean Eichmann, probably one of the most infamous Nazis that survived,
Kate: Us.
Dee: Bringing him to justice and lent his sentencing and punishment. I mean that had to be gratifying. Historical justice, you know, means. And that's what happened at the end of all, you know, the conclusion of all these dialogues as we got back, we break their tormentors. We killed them. And so, I mean, I think that's kind of what happened. So the Stalagmone had a short they. They're only around for a few years. The one that killed it all was a book called I was Colonel Schultz. Private *****. That was, that was the book I was looking for the.
Unknown Speaker: On them.
Dee: I couldn't find the cover, but that was the most outrageous and infamous. And it was the one that ended the genre, and it was told from the viewpoint of a female prisoner forced to join a a camp brothel. The protagonist was a Jewish woman, a French Jewish woman captured by a Nazi officer who makes her his dog. And then she gets revenge and he becomes her dog.
Unknown Speaker: Uh.
Kate: Now I want to be your dog.
Dee: Yeah.
Kate: You want to be my dog.
Dee: It's like the Stooges song. Apparently young Israelis, and I think Israeli censors in general were like, you know, the British. Who, you know, had the misfortune of like landing into a a camp and becoming Pi WS. That made sense, but a Jewish woman. In that role, becoming a a dog to this Nazi soldier that was a little bit too much. And. I think it pushed.
Kate: You're all that broke the camel's back.
Dee: It pushed the. It broke, you know, they stepped over the line. And so at that point, they're like, these are this. These publishers are disseminating *********** and they shut it down.
Unknown Speaker: Yeah.
Dee: They haunted every copy of I was Colonel Schultz's private *****. And they shut it down. And then that was the short lived life of the Nazi pornstalak.
Kate: I would.
Dee: However, you know, though, the stalags, the literary fiction here was short lived, it did kind of engender a whole new genre of film Nazi exploitation film. And so this is kind of like late 60s, definitely throughout the 70s. I started these like. Basically it was just like the film version of the Nazi starlogs. The first one was a movie called Love Camp 7, which came out in 1969. That was the first one and that just kind of ushered in a whole, you know, slew of these films. She wolf of the s s, definitely the most famous. Which I also had a string of sequels and RIP offs and then there was like the more like artsy side of these of. Nazi exploitation wave with movies like litmus Cavani's the night Porter and Pierre Paulo's Salo, 120 days of Sodom. You ever see that?
Kate: Of course I have.
Dee: It's a great, great film.
Kate: It is.
Dee: So the earliest one was was love Camp 7, set in a Nazi camp, and definitely like the vanguard of the modern women in prison. John that came out in the 70s. The story resembled like a true adventure Pope yarn. Yeah, similar to the stylad. In order to rescue a Jewish scientist, two female agents infiltrate a Nazi Joy Division camp, where prisoners are kept as slaves for German officers. So they had to become. They had to become, you know, prostitutes. Go undercover.
Kate: To get the job there. Done.
Dee: Are scenes of bootlicking humiliation, whipping, torture, lesbianism and near rape, culminating in a violent and bloody escape? Some of the characters are great. A cruel and perverse commandotte. A lesbian doctor. Sadistic guards who abused the prisoners and strip them naked. And, oddly enough, a sympathetic German who tried to help. It's kind of weird.
Kate: Oh. Yeah, we all know Germans don't have hearts.
Dee: Yeah, it's like, come on, they're cruel beasts. The most infamous and influential. One of all is Ilsa. She wolf of the SS came out in 1974, and it was from Canada. Canada was churning out these Nazi exploitation films. We have a pic of Ilsa.
Kate: We do.
Dee: So these movies came. This is what this is like. 1974 mostly came out for the grindhouse like drive in. You imagine going to a drive in. Yes.
Kate: This is not a film that you should be watching with a bunch of strangers.
Dee: Elsa, go for the s s.
Kate: Is a film you?
Dee: Oh.
Kate: In your house alone or with a partner? I.
Dee: Could imagine watching it with my girlfriend in a car, but it'd be kind of probably a little obscene. The series started or started. Diane Thorne and possibly book some death camp Commandant whose insatiable sexual appetites compelled her to humiliate graphically. Torture, mutilate, castrate, and generally exterminate any man who didn't leave her satisfied.
Kate: Such a fun film. Highly recommend this film. Very very silly. Love.
Dee: It, but they touch on a lot of taboo topics like. Mengele's scientific test, the human experimentation they did. She did a test, for example. Ilsa has a male and a female prisoner flogged to death to prove her theory that women can endure more pain than men. So I was looking for a clip that we can play here on the youtubes, but there's too much nudity. Pretty much every scene. There's like at least press.
Unknown Speaker: Yeah.
Dee: But here's a here's a scene. Nudity, but definitely sexually charged.
Kate: To give you a little taste of those who've not seen it.
Unknown Speaker: It's been a pleasure to have had you with us here again, Las.
Dee: Dad.
Unknown Speaker: They shall be leaving early in the morning.
Unknown Speaker: I think.
Unknown Speaker: Shortly after dawn.
Dee: You're a little off with an hour and 16 minutes and 16. This would have been due today.
Kate: Oh, my God, you sent 160.
Dee: Yeah, I met an hour and 16.
Kate: Oh, here we go and get to that.
Dee: Yeah, here we are. Here, let me.
Kate: Don't put 116 in.
Unknown Speaker: Yeah.
Unknown Speaker: Once duty must come first.
Unknown Speaker: Close camera.
Unknown Speaker: But. No ceremonies please. I shall just depart when I am ready.
Dee: He's about to take off.
Unknown Speaker: Have you have any further service to the general?
Dee: Diane Thorne, sexy.
Unknown Speaker: Yes.
Kate: She is hot.
Dee: She's got the whole SS uniform.
Unknown Speaker: On.
Kate: Yeah.
Unknown Speaker: Fine, fine. Not the top.
Dee: He wants her to keep the SS uniform on.
Unknown Speaker: The breaches only.
Kate: Who can blame him?
Dee: Just take the breaches off. He's like, turned on to. That's a thing. The audience, this is like one of the only scenes where there's no nudity, but the audio is great in this scene. Really kind of illustrates how how amazing this movie is. She's slipping off her breaches. The guy looks like he's about to have a heart attack. Take off the zipper. Off the zipper.
Unknown Speaker: Please.
Dee: Canadian actor, like a famous Canadian.
Kate: He *** in his pants. Not as the men's in here is there? Yeah, famous.
Unknown Speaker: The boot.
Dee: Don't make her take out the boots. Oh yeah.
Unknown Speaker: Put put them back on.
Kate: No, he wants the booze back on.
Unknown Speaker: I.
Dee: This movie is great.
Kate: I've seen a whole bunch of times. Of course I have.
Dee: Because I'm like, getting down on the ground.
Unknown Speaker: Can you understand?
Unknown Speaker: Play.
Unknown Speaker: Come. You are like some blonde goddess. She is.
Dee: Like a blonde goddess. He's lying. Prostate on the ground here.
Kate: Diane Von has a diamond level *****.
Unknown Speaker: For me. But one way.
Dee: This is great. Had to play the whole scene.
Unknown Speaker: What have the pleasure? Do you understand? Come please.
Dee: I know this is the part to pay attention to the audio.
Unknown Speaker: Come.
Dee: In liberty or what do you? Is it German?
Unknown Speaker: No.
Dee: Such a grace.
Unknown Speaker: With me.
Dee: She's only kissing on him.
Kate: She's ******* on him.
Dee: She's ******* on him. Yeah, there you go. A great movie. I highly recommend it. It's a good, good family viewing. I think you can see it on Disney.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: It's a movie, but but the character. Is based on The Witcher bug Infoke wife of the Buchenwald concentration camp, Carl Ottokoke. She was known for having pervas perverse sexual dilences with the prisoners and had lampshades. Made from human skin.
Unknown Speaker: She did.
Kate: Very, very psychotic woman.
Dee: Yeah, very evil lady. This movie is so successful when it came out that they had a host of sequels. Ilsa Harem, keeper of the oil sheiks, Ilsa the tigress of Siberia.
Kate: And while she went to Siberia.
Dee: Yeah, it it spawned a whole industry of Italian made Nazi ********** splatter **** there. A bunch of them that came out.
Kate: Yeah, like, do you think like? Dario Ogento and Aldo, like the Italian wave of like, violent. Do you think that would have even occurred if this hadn't been going at the same time?
Dee: And then.
Unknown Speaker: Well.
Dee: I mean, I think it definitely was an offshoot, but related for sure. I mean the some of the titles, these Italian ones were like Nazi love camp between 7 Salon, Kitty, the Gestapo's last ****.
Kate: Yeah. Oh, I've seen Salon Key. That's a good one.
Dee: Yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty great. And then there was, like, the art house films that came out like a swan Kitty would be considered by Tinto Brass. Liliana Cavini's, the night Porter, Piero Paulo Pasolini's solo 100 days of Sodom. As well as the beast in heat. You ever see that?
Kate: No, but I want to.
Dee: Label in Calor and yeah, and Caesar caneries. The last **** of the Third Reich. a major influence on the genre you might have seen. This one was the controversial art house production the Damned. It out in 1969.
Kate: I have seen the dumps. It's amazing film.
Dee: Yeah, directed by Luchino Visconti. About the this is a good movie. Seen this too. For awhile. It's about the rise and fall of the German industrialist family in the Third Reich. It featured an **** of homosexual SA men. And depicted one of the main characters eventually joins the SS as a troubled multiple pervert posing in a transvestite outfit, blustering little girls, and finally committing incest with his own mother.
Kate: Wow, yeah.
Dee: So, well, the ILSA series and some of the art house films are profitable. Most of them were just total flops. And the whole. The whole genre of Nazi exploitation **** kind of vanished by the mid 80s, although
Kate: You don't say.
Dee: Another side here is the Mitchell brothers. Actually had full on Nazi ****. As well, yeah, like S&M **** films such as Hot Nazis, Nazi Love Island with John Holmes and Seka.
Kate: Did they?
Dee: 70s points, sorry.
Kate: Wow. Oh, that'll be very late on then. Be. John Holmes has the aids.
Dee: I think it was like early, yeah, like late 80s, early 80s.
Kate: Yeah, that would be he's nearly dead.
Dee: Hitler's harlot is another one. Just just to kind of conclude it. So the Nazi genre didn't. You know, obviously it kind of faded away into obscurity in the. I think they kind of stopped doing a lot of these movies, but there's been homage. Did you ever see the 2007 film by Robert Rodriguez? Tarantino, grindhouse did. Do you watch that?
Kate: Honestly, I have seen that.
Dee: Sadly so in in I forgot about this. I haven't seen a long time. There's a great I love the vignette with Kurt Russell.
Kate: Kurt Russell's the only good. About that awful film.
Dee: But there is. There is a scene I didn't even remember this, but Rob Zombie had a trailer for a fake film called Werewolf Women of the SS starring Nicolas Cage.
Kate: Yeah.
Dee: Do you this?
Kate: I can't remember that either, no.
Dee: I remember this either and I guess it was like a kind of like a fake trailer and rob zombie's like. Basically I had two ideas. It was either going to be a Nazi movie or women in prison film. Then I went with the Nazis. And there's all those movies. Like I'll say she wolf of the SS and fraud devil and love Camp 7. Always found that to be a bizarre genre, so I think he was just kind of paying Hom. Yeah, so solid novel. Those might have been. Might. Deemed crude, vulgar, kind of disrespectful to what actually happened. True horrors of the Holocaust. But in a sense, I think. I think it helped the children, you know, the the, the, the second generation whose parents are in the Holocaust, come to terms with what actually happened. I mean it's like. It's hard to it's hard to really imagine the unspeakable horror that happened in it. I think these books kind of help them rationalize it. Possibly fantasize about it. You know, they probably gave Ryan definitely attracted a morbid curiosity, but. You know, undeniably gave rise to a forbidden sexual fantasy. You know, a subversive indulgence and the ultimate evil is a form of ****** catharsis. And the same thing you can be said. With the night stalker, like the goth *****, fantasizing about having sex with night stalker, I wonder how many of them would have actually had sex with that vile creature.
Kate: I think they were all there to try and do exactly that.
Dee: But I think that's what we do. Mean we're. A lot of us, you know, it's like the we eroticize evil. We fetishize the forbidden, you know, and I think what's not been dressing up and playing Nazi.
Kate: Yeah. Part of our. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Dee: Perfectly healthy people.
Kate: Don't judge me.
Dee: What what I want to know is how many people, how many listeners right now are downloading Ilsa she wolf of the SS.
Kate: All well, I imagine that a lot of people who listen to this podcast have seen that film multiple times.
Dee: Vile perverts. The lot of them.