Washington Sunday Journal (April 7, 1996)

People in this video

Steve Scully
Producer
C-SPAN

Elaine Shannon
Correspondent
Time Magazine

Don W. Wilson
Executive Director
George H.W. Bush Presidential Library Foundation

Donald A. Baer
Senior Editor
U.S. News and World Report

James "Jim" P. Pinkerton
Professor
George Washington University->Graduate School of
Political Management

Interview

Steve Scully: Good morning. It's April 7th, Easter Sunday in a cloudy, cool morning here in the nation's capital. Our camera this morning is perched atop the Hotel Washington. You can see two of the more famous monuments in this country, the Washington Monument and the Jefferson Memorial. The cherry blossoms in full bloom this weekend. Numerous the president is in town most of the week. The Funeral services held midweek for Commerce Secretary Ron Brown, killed last week in a plane crash in Croatia. Congress is still out for the spring recess. Lawmakers are back in session April 15th, a week from tomorrow.

Here's what's ahead on C-SPAN Sunday Journal.

In just a moment, Elaine Shannon, who has been with Time magazine. As their Washington correspondent for the past nine years, she has been spending much of the past week working on a story from Montana and here in Washington on the Unabomber investigation.

In about 25 to 30 minutes, our Newspaper Roundtable segment with two White House veterans, Don Bayer, who is President Clinton's communication director and former speechwriter, and Jim Pinkerton, who wrote speeches during the Bush administration. He is now a columnist with Newsday, also syndicated across the country, coming up in about 90 minutes will take you inside the making of. A presidential library. The C-SPAN School bus is in College Station, TX, where the Bush presidential library is now under construction. David Alsobrook will be joining us from that location, and John Fawcett, who is a consultant on presidential records, will be with us here in our studio. But let's start, as we always do, with a look at the morning headlines, beginning with the Washington Post, two stories getting a lot of attention. First of all, the return of those 33 Americans killed in Bosnia and the profile of a loner, a story on the front page of most newspapers, Theodore Kaczynski, the alleged Unabomber suspect. Elaine Shannon. Good morning. How did your week unfold when this investigation began to? Become public on Wednesday.

Elaine Shannon: Well, we've been watching the Unabomber for several years. I had a big, thick foul on him, and I pulled it out because his I didn't want to think that this really was the guy, because there have been so many false leads before. They've hustled out a lot of guys in North Northern California who haven't been the one. As they develop more information, we were hearing that the things in the cabin and there were all the signatures, including we report here a bomb or a part of a bomb with the signature, the unique way of fabricating. That was the Unabomber. So that told us that this is the.

Steve: Guy that led them to this man.

Elaine: The brother his. Brother David was in, I think, in December, cleaning out the family house near Chicago found some writings that. Struck him. I I don't know whether he'd read the manifesto that was printed last year of the Unabomber, or whether it was something else. But they certainly struck him and he called a lawyer in Washington, who then approached the FBI and then the FBI convinced that brother. And he needed to come in and talk with them directly and this led. To the brother, although I'm sure he was reluctant and worried about his brother's safety, even though they seemed not to have been terribly close, the Unabomber suspect is a. Hermit, the brother turned over the papers. The mother turned over the papers and the FBI started doing a profile out in Montana of this man and. Decided there was enough to go on and so went for the.

Steve: Search last week, you and others from Time magazine report this is a faxed copy of what will be. In the News magazine tomorrow, one of the sub headlines calling him the Harvard hermit who discovered modern life 25 years ago. And let me just read one graph of the story. It says Theater, John theater. John Kaczynski lived at heavens Back door, just below the largest stretch of unbroken wilderness in the continental US. No cars, no roads. No buildings beyond a shelter or two, and on any given day, more grizzly bears than people. What does this tell you about his whole manifesto against mankind and technology?

e wasn’t a hypocrite. He lives as he wrote. His manifesto, and there are a lot of things in it that I would agree with and a lot of other people would, that industrialization and pollution are terrible things, but he carried it to an extreme, and obviously murder is something that is far beyond any political philosophy, but he had a bike. He didn’t have any plumbing, he didn’t have any electricity.

Elaine: Well, he wasn’t a hypocrite. He lives as he wrote. His manifesto, and there are a lot of things in it that I would agree with and a lot of other people would, that industrialization and pollution are terrible things, but he carried it to an extreme, and obviously murder is something that is far beyond any political philosophy, but he had a bike. He didn’t have any plumbing, he didn’t have any electricity.

One thing I was surprised at is he was not terribly handy with his hands. We report that he wasn't particularly good at fixing it. He had an old car, old truck, and he couldn't fix it. There was just one thing he could do very, very well and that was make bombs.

Steve: Why did he do it?

Elaine: Well, that's the $64 question. Is the John Douglas who wrote mine Hunter, who's an FBI profiler for many years and recently retired and did a lot of these serial killers, thinks he is just a serial killer, thinks that whoever the Unabomber is, and if it's his man, we'll see is a person who got twisted up early in life. Found out. As they often do in their mid 20s, that he really enjoyed killing, that this gave him the status and and the attention and the esteem that he never had in his ordinary life. And he got a thrill out of it and. So he acquired a. Political overlay to justify it, but at bottom he enjoys domination. He enjoys manipulation. Enjoys it. Tension of manipulating people or institutions, and this would have John always said this is going to continue whether or not they published the manifesto that's secondary. That's just an excuse. He'll do it again.

Steve: Because he needs to. Our front lines are open now. We want to hear from you in particular, if you can tell us something that you find of interest in your hometown newspaper, 202-624-1111. For those of you who live in the eastern and. Central time zones and for those who out you out West, 202-624-1115. You can also fax in if you have a fax machine at home, or if you're at the office on this Easter Sunday morning. We also want to tell you what's being talked about on the other Sunday morning programs. As you might imagine, the Unabomber investigation is dominating the coverage, beginning with ABC's This week with David Brinkley. The guests include John Douglas, who's the former head of the FBI serial serial crime unit, Jerry Spence, a well known defense attorney, and former Pennsylvania governor and US Attorney General. **** Thornberg Sam Donaldson is the guest host this morning with Bill Kristol of The Weekly Standard, Cokie Roberts, and George will. On CBS's Face the Nation, the Unabomber, and a threat of domestic terrorism, the guests include Brian Jenkins, who is an expert on terrorism, Oliver Buck Ravel, who is the former associate deputy director of the FBI, and Michael Rustin, who's a criminologist, Gloria Borger of U.S. news and World Report, Ron Brownstein of the LA Times. And Jim Stewart of CBS News will be joining Bob Schieffer on this Sunday. Morning on a already taped NBC's Meet the Press, the topic is politics, religion and God. With Senator Dan Coats of Indiana, former New York Governor Mario Cuomo, Senator Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut and Congressman JC Watts of Oklahoma joining Tim Russert is Elizabeth Drew, who is the author of showdown. She also has an article this morning in the Washington Post. On the editorial page and on CNN's late Edition, the topic is the Unabomber, with James Fox, Brian Jenkins and Richard. Both the roundtable guests include Jack Birnbaum of Time magazine, Susan Page of USA TODAY, and Steve Roberts of U.S. news and World Report. There are a number of stories in the paper this past week about CBS News and its own knowledge of the the suspect. Did that force the FBI to to act quicker than it normally?

Elaine: Well, yes, and Jim Stewart did a hell of a job ferreting this out, and he evidently had the story over the weekend at least, and was making calls on. And gave the FBI some warning, and they apparently negotiated a deal whereby CBS would give the FBI time to get in position to move in, so the guy wouldn't flee. Law enforcement agencies always want more time. They always complain if we try to cover. The story anytime before the appeals are done. It can take years, and so there's always a love hate relationship with the press, but we should know that Louis free, the head of the FBI, had a statement released Friday night saying that CBS acted responsibly and and held its fire and told the FBI and the other federal agencies its ATF and Postal Service couldn't move in and get the. Get the evidence.

Steve: Did other news?

Elaine: No one was heard.

Steve: Did other news organizations know about it?

Elaine: Well, CBS said that they they heard that two other networks, CNN and other network, were on the trail. But I don't know that.

Steve: When did you first begin sensing that this was going to lead to the cover story for Time magazine? It's also the cover of U.S. news and the other publications and your own role in doing some reporting. On it.

Elaine: Well, the minute that we heard that this might be the guy look like an, I think it was a very live cover possibility it it's this guy's been gone longer than anybody else in the nation's history in terms of the fugitive the serial killer. What the investigation tells you, it tells you an awful lot about the way federal agencies work. It tells you a lot about the way our society works.

Steve: Let's get a call from New York City. Good morning. Hello, good morning, caller, this is Fort Lauderdale. Go ahead please.

Caller #1: Oh, good morning, Steve. Hey, Steve. Before I ask you my question, let me give C-SPAN a little constructive criticism. OK, sure. Well. Yeah, I I come from the opinion that, you know, C-SPAN is a public service. More than like, you know, general commercial operations. And I think by and large that you show a good balanced view of. The events you televised. But your guests are. You know, when you when you have like someone from the FDA? That that takes questions from the audience about the FDA or. Specific congressman that call, I think that's excellent, but. A lot of your. Hosts either come with a a political viewpoint and opinion that they're there just to defend and that's it. They're like, well, they're, you know, just two political puppets to kind of spout their party line and.

Steve: The hosts on this network, the host your guests.

Caller #1: And I would like to. See more of your like. You had some. Man from USDA. Defending their regulations or the FDA, you know, someone that with experience and. Is in the business that you know, they're just not there with their own opinions.

Steve: OK.

Caller #1: In my. The thing is on the tensions and the. North and South Korea. And is this a real war? Just a little kind of political upset for those people who get some more food that they really need?

Steve: Thanks for the comment. I know you're based here in Washington. Have you been following the situation in Korea?

Elaine: I've had enough on that plate. We also did a long story on the anniversary of the Oklahoma bombing, and we I hope the. Caller reads our. Story because we try to prevent a very balanced view of what the defense has to say, as well as the prosecution. I know it's always a concern that people feel the press takes the side of the government. The time we don't we report at length on how the defense is trying to get Tim McVeigh. Off the hook.

Steve: And one thing I should point out too, Colin, we we talk about this often on this network. We have two networks 24 hours a day with both the networks and hopefully throughout the day you're going to see some diverse opinions and discussion on a variety of issues and throughout the course of our programming you'll see some balance and different perspectives, and that's really what this is all about. So hope you keep watching and like what you see. Let's now go on to New York City, where they are reading the new. York Times, of course. Good morning.

Caller #2: I'd just like to point out that almost a year ago course of this Oklahoma bombing, your guest happened to say on TV that broke the news about the Oklahoma bombing, that it was definitely. A Middle East fundamentalist Muslim. Group and I distinctly remember that she said this on a TV show, and so I would say that I'm not saying that this person that they arrested as the Unabomber is not the Unabomber, but what she speculates as to what this guy is about and. Makes them tick. I would. Be wary of of even contemplating, you know, I mean to me the news, credibility, news sources. A very very minimal.

Steve: Let me follow up on that and point out this is from page 35 of the US News and World Report, the manifesto that was published last September in both the Washington Post and the New York Times, 35,000 words. Was that a turning point for investigators? Did this lead Mr. Kaczynski's brother to? Alert the FBI.

Elaine: We don't know what it is that David Kaczynski read or heard that led him to believe that the writings he found in his mother's attic were the same, or could be similar to whatever the Unabomber had written. But we know something triggered. His uh. Conscience about this and he. Something bothered him. And so he brought these writings to the the attention of the FBI. We don't know precisely what it was, whether he read a newspaper story or whether he found some, some things in the house that bothered him. And on the callers call about whether or not I said it was definitely a Middle Eastern group that did the bombing. I think probably what I would have said was that. Many officials or most people, terrorism experts at the moment of the bombing and for several hours after for that day, felt that very strongly, very strongly, that it was a Middle Eastern group and this began to change during the night when the vehicle identification number of the. Truck was located and that led to the Ryder Truck Rental and they got the identification of the two guys that. Had rented the truck.

Steve: In the interview with Timothy McVeigh in the Oklahoma bombing case, did you learn anything new to Time magazine? Learn anything that it did not know beforehand.

Elaine: I don't think so. He won't talk about the case. What's interesting is his lawyer, Stephen Jones, is attempting to argue that it was other groups that did it. He doesn't argue that Tim McVeigh wasn't there and didn't drive the truck up to the building. He argues that. He must have been a soldier in some other larger terrorist cabal, but he can't. He he sort of jumps around from IRA to Neo Nazi to Middle East, and I understand he's looking at the Philippines right now. So my question is, if he, if his client was in contact with some group of. People, why didn't he? Why doesn't he ask the client? The client says. Well, I was working for. What's up?

Steve: A look at some. Of the newsweeklies, beginning with the weekly. The cover story it's a nerve wracking life. The over entertaining of America by Michael Anton. Also this morning, The New Yorker has an investigative piece in a travel gate by Peter Boyer and also. A piece on Ron Brown's legacy and Time magazine, its cover odyssey of a Mad Gen. Plus, Oklahoma City. One year later, tales from the survivors and as we just mentioned in an interview with Timothy McVeigh, Richmond, VA, Good morning.

Caller #3: Good morning.

Steve: How are you today?

Caller #3: Fine, thank you. I'm reading the Richmond Times and the headline I want to talk about the story beneath is the agents diffuse bomb and cabin of suspect, the Unabomber. But before I make a comment about that, I would like to to say something about the. This relates to the media and its the way it lines up, I believe on a certain side of an issue and tries to sort of push one viewpoint related to the incident recently with the police out in California. We keep seeing the 15 or 20 seconds of the video in which the police are. Beating the suspects and so forth and that looks bad to me. I understand they're about 30 or 45 minutes of video taken from that helicopter before that of this truck riding up the highway 100 miles an hour trying to throw the camper top back and injured. Maybe even kill the police and we never see any of that video. But on the on the Unabomber thing. It's about about a year ago when we had the Oklahoma City bombing. There was immediately the attempt by the Democrats, aided by the media, to make this look in some way like this was tied in to conservatives attempt to downsize government to make the federal government less intrusive in our lives. In some way, there was a direct connection between this and what happened in Oklahoma City.

Steve: Agree or disagree, Elaine Shannon.

Elaine: I don't know how large a. That was, and I do recall, at one point President Clinton talking about that we should all tone down our use of very strong language and generally hate. But I think that people who are twisted and people who are evil and people. I can't understand why people do what they do and and I'm not sure that it's for the people who do the really evil things for any political reason or because I've heard any rhetoric at all. They they might have done it if they just spent all of their time listening.

Elaine: They might have done it if they just spent all of their time listening to rock music or gospel or whatever, that there's something inside that drives and I think and. I don't know whether external forces have much impact on that.

Steve: On the same day that the Unabomber suspect was arrested in a mountaintop off the coast of near the coast of Croatia, former commerce Secretary Ron Brown, who was killed the 1st. A cabinet member to be killed in the line of duty in 150 years overseas, according to The Associated Press. The last secretary to die was 1987. Malcolm Baldridge, who was killed in 1987. He was at a rodeo. He also, as I said, Commerce secretary, but the bodies.

Elaine: He's riding a horse at a rodeo.

Steve: Yeah, the the bodies returned yesterday in Dover DE and we'll show some scenes from that your thoughts on? The the week and Ron Bro.

Elaine: Well, this was obviously a terrible tragedy, not only for the Brown family, but for all the families of the industrial leaders who died, that other people from commerce, Doris ministering, the head of the immigration service, lost her husband, her children lost their father. Number of commerce employees, some young with their whole lives ahead of them. We're all very, very sorry about this. I've landed at that airport. It's it's fairly hairy. And I I think we're all asking. Why did the plane need to fly in this worst storm of years and years and years? Of course we don't know the answer that's under investigation. I hope it's a good.

Steve: Chris Hedges of the New York Times is reporting this morning that American helicopters were not told the crash site had been located until about 11:00 PM. Which the accident happened at about 3:00 o'clock. Wednesday afternoon, local time and according to this investigation, the Army is looking into complaints of the confusion in the initial search for the plane. According again to this article, most of the victims, if not all, were killed instantly. But there is some question whether or not one gravely injured crew member who was found alive by the Croats but died later. Might have been able to survive based on the fact that it took so long to get to this.

Elaine: Oh, absolutely. I mean it's it's but that travelling in that region that is the most one of the most chaotic regions in the world and. This is why I think a lot of people were troubled when Hillary Clinton and her daughter went over there. There's it's the security situation and communications are incredibly difficult, no matter how important you.

Steve: Are take a call from McLean, VA, good morning.

Caller #4: Yeah, that's concerning the Unabomber story. In the Washington Post, I want to know if if the post is considering that, that what they did, printing the manifesto to be a really smart idea, and if they're congratulating themselves for having gone ahead and done that.

Steve: As a journalist, what do you think of that?

Elaine: I I know that a lot of journalists are very, very torn about that because you don't want to invite everybody with a bunch of wild ideas and a bunch of bums and or guns to. Enjoy your pages, on the other hand, there's a lot of feeling that the brothers memory was triggered by something he read and they would not have read this if the guys manifesto had not been published. The post and the times at the time published it as a joint venture and they used the post planning press and they did it the way they would do an. Advertising section. And I think they're not sorry and I. Think they're glad? Because this. That this guy was building more bombs. He was going to do it again. It looks like they found another an exploded device. They had diffuse it. They found some partial, partially assembled ones. He hadn't given it up and. He was probably. It is conceivable that he would have struck again, but I don't know that anybody's popping the champagne corks over the way this came out. Nobody likes to hand their pages over.

Steve: To anybody, just got this call from Louisiana, the correct pronunciation of your town. Good morning. You're reading the Shreveport times.

Caller #5: That's correct. The conservative revolution is still alive and well in Louisiana. We've got a special session going on in Baton Rouge, concealed carry, tort reform, insurance. Form just about every conservative issue you can think of as being pushed and passed, so I hope the can the Liberals in the country don't count their eggs too early and and I think they've got this thing sewed up with the with the President and the presidential election.

Steve: Following presidential politics.

Elaine: Well, who is it? Of course, we've got a little low right now. It'll be interesting to see which way Dole goes with his vice presidential choice. Not that that necessarily will persuade. The call or anybody else to go for Dole as opposed to Clinton, although I can probably bet you won't go to for Clinton and people in my hometown. Probably won't either.

Steve: Richard Burke has an article this morning in the New York Times Sunday magazine and you have entered the black hole of American politics. That's what the headline says. This could be the longest intermission in the history of American political theater. It's as if the actors have lost their scripts and no longer must they endure the usual obstacle course of primaries and caucuses to plot along until summer. But they must improvise to keep voters attention, if not allegiance. On November the 5th, 30 weeks between now and what may feel like an eternity.

Elaine: Well, it's about time too. Weren't we all exhausted after hearing about what everybody in New Hampshire thought? I met some people from New Hampshire the other day just felt sort of battered by all of these candidates.

Steve: One other part of the article, Anne Lewis is quoted as saying. The best politics this year could be the least political, and he says that that's what now looks like the longest general election campaign ever could turn out to be the shortest, with Clinton sticking to a Rose Garden strategy and Senator dole to a Rotunda strategy, a campaign what campaign to get a call from Birmingham. From Binghamton, NY. Good morning.

Caller #6: Good morning I. I've been reading. A lot about the Unabomber and you. We we see that the. You know, because he's in Montana. He was found in Montana. Now he's. You can't read an article without a mention of the Freeman and the Unabomber in the same in the same article because of where he was located. And it seems to me that I've been waiting for the the press to identify the Unabomber as a as a left wing extremist. But I don't think we're ever going to hear that from the press and I it's probably only a matter of time before the militia movement is tied to the plane crash of Ron. Around the way, the way that things get reported in the press, and I was interested, I'm interested as as to why there hasn't been a lot of linking of the Unabomber to left wing extremist groups like, you know, there was a, a, a rush to. Link McVeigh and Nichols to the militia groups and I'll hang up, thank. You very much.

Steve: Thank you, caller.

Elaine: Well, actually on Friday night, I believe ABC carried a A segment talking about the possibility that the Unabomber had sympathized with or hooked up with the Earth. First movement, which are very radical, environmentalist and the West Coast and. Go after logging installations. If you read his manifesto though, he he goes after feminist and he goes after leftists too. And yeah, I mean I've I've seen a number of articles saying, well, maybe he has is sympathetic to the left and I know the FBI looked at people who had been in leftist radical. Movements in the 60s and 70s. If you read his manifesto or against a lot of different movements from the right and left so it it that it was not just spouting A leftist line.

Steve: Neil Livingston in the outlook section of the Washington Post, has an article about Montana, which has been getting a fair amount of attention this past week. He says over the past year, Montana has increasingly found itself on the national news. Each episode has cast the state where I grew up as a distinctly unique, if not decidedly eccentric, place. The first time the media descended on Montana was when daytime speed limit was abolished on the Interstate highways. Then, with the Oklahoma City bombing the focus on the Montana militia. Now the standoff with the the Freeman and of course, the arrest of Theodore Kaczynski.

Elaine: Well, I was out in Montana week before last skiing and I happen to think it's and I hiked there in the summer and I think it's the greatest state around. A lot of people do. There's a lot of space and there's not a lot of people and people will leave you alone if you want to be left alone or you can find the most pristine wilderness there. And so, of course, people who want a lot of elbow room, as, as Neil points out, might go up there.

Steve: Let's get one more call and I have a final question before we let you go. Elaine Shannon Falls Church, VA, good morning.

Caller #7: Morning, Steve. Happy Easter and happy Easter to Miss Shannon.

Steve: To you.

Caller #7: I'm reading Mary McCrory, the homeless and the Heartless heartless in the post. This is the same Mary McCrory who months ago I saw on Meet the Press and who tried to blame the death of a homeless person on the Republic. Even though the Republicans bill, you know, on welfare reform hadn't been passed, it's a very pro Clinton, how Clinton's trying to continue to spend money on the homeless. If I could just read a very quick paragraph from Newt Gingrich's Renew America book, consider the facts. Welfare spending is now 305 billion a year. Since 65 we have spent. 5 trillion on welfare, more than the cost of winning World War 2. Yet despite this massive effort, continued conditions and poor communities have grown measurably worse. Since 70, the number of children living in poverty has increased 40%. Juvenile arrest rates for crime have tripled, the number of unmarried pregnant. Girls have doubled and the bottom line, the more we spend to alleviate poverty, the more we assure the next generation will almost certainly grow up in poverty. Clearly something as profoundly wrong. Mary McCrory continues to hammer against the Republicans, but you know the facts are the facts. Welfare needs to be changed, and I I just find that somebody should. Slam her because she just continues this assault on the Republican. And the facts are that, you know, their programs have not.

Steve: Worked. Thanks very much. Color next to Mary Mcgrory's article is Elizabeth Drew's column this morning. Three men and a budget. A look inside the negotiations between the President, the speaker of the House and the Senate Majority Leader in their budget talks. Elaine Shannon well.

Elaine: That's why the outlook session is very good. It gives you a lot of insights and it can ruin your coffee. It sounds like, but you know, Bill Clinton is heading for the middle or the middle, right? We pledged to end welfare as we know it. We don't know whether he'll get to, but he he's got a lot of schisms within his own party and there are a lot of differences that he has in the centrist Democrats have with what are called the traditional Democrats. So it'll be interesting to.

Steve: See what happens next year, how many people worked? On this cover story.

Elaine: Regions, and they all did a wonderful job. Uh at least. 1012 correspondence. We got wonderful fouls out of Ed Barnes in Schenectady and went. In Chicago particularly.

Steve: And for those who don't understand how this whole process works, when the arrest took place on Wednesday, what transpired at Time magazine? Who was sent to Montana? Who was assigned the different tasks, and how did this?

Elaine: All come together. We have a terrific Stringer out in Montana. Who's from there? Who's been covering the Freeman and so. To get in his. Car and drive.

Steve: Who's that?

Elaine: Over to Lincoln, his name is in the article there and. David Jackson, who is our San Francisco Bureau chief, went out to Berkeley immediately because this man had been teaching in Berkeley for a short period of time. Sam Ellis, who's our Boston correspondent, went over to Harvard and dug up some fascinating stuff on. How occlusive this person was even in Harvard.

Steve: Elaine Shannon with Time magazine Washington correspondent. Thanks very much for joining us. We will continue on this Easter Sunday morning right after this.

News Roundtable

C-Span Voiceover: You're watching Sunday journal up next, our newspaper roundtable with Don Beyer, White House communications director, and Jim Pinkerton, former director of policy planning for President Bush and currently a columnist at Newsday. And later in the program, we'll visit the George Bush Presidential Library Center, which is currently under construction in College Station, TX. But first, Don Wilson, executive director of the library, describes the project.

Don Wilson: The normal visitor are about 95% of our visitors. Of course. Go to the museum and come come to the museum and they'll come in to a large Rotunda area, which will be a gathering point at the missions and information desk. And in that Rotunda area, we were going to have, we'll have these, what we call electronic scrapbooks. That people can learn about. History of the family and the. Kind of the heritage of the of the bushes and as you turn the pages, they electronically will bring up video and footage of family pictures and family videos. And then you'll move into. Most people will choose to go to the orientation film, a short film on the life of President Bush, which will be emphasized. Of course, the strong family bonds there, but also the public service, which is a theme throughout this presidential complex, it's this strong sense of public service that the President had. As they come out of there, they they will come in to the gallery. We have a large temporary exhibition gallery which will be changing shows that we have provided for a lot of museums, the presidential library, museums haven't had adequate temporary gallery. So we have we've built that in from the beginning. As far as the permanent exhibit goes, once they move into the permanent exhibit area, we will also have some electronic notebooks here, but this is going to. Be kind of a easing into the life of of George Bush and some of it's like going into somebody's attic. You're going to feel like you're going. To have you're. Going to see a little bit of this and a little bit of that. His baseball uniform, his his, the the strong sports heritage of the whole family, including his mother, is a tennis champion. And and of course, the the Walker Cup coming from the the external side of the family. All of this you will see. It's kind of a broad introduction to the, to the Bush legacy in the Bush heritage and then that will lead into World War 2 gallery, which really we feature because it was such an important part of the president's. Like one of the youngest Navy pilots in World War Two and of course, being shot down had a tremendous impact on his on his later life, going on in. And once he came back to Yale years. Beginning his family, graduating Yale, going to West, TX to Midland, and here we have an actual. 47 Studebaker, which he drove to West, TX from the East Coast and what you will see throughout the exhibition are a series of icons and as the as the Avenger is an icon in this area, the Studebaker and oil well Derrick, because that's what brought him to West, TX into the business. From there you go to the capital and you get interested in politics and all the time, looking through, you're seeing the White House facade and the. Background the visitors is seeing that then to the UN experience, head of the Republican Party. Here we we feature a A segment on China which was the imperial. Piece of the Imperial Palace, which Mrs. Bush had took so many tours and provided so many tours for visitors. Throughout this, Mrs. Bush and the family are very heavily represented because they're such an integral part of this whole. Rear in life this this is kind of an interesting exhibit area here. The icon being the satellite for the CIA years. But as you walk up, the visitor walks up to this panel. It is a blank wall and they touch it. It it, it comes that tells a story with images and photographs. That that appear electronically. Then in the vice presidential years and and one of the features there is is the world map because he was the most traveled vice president, went to 668 to 70 countries during the period and it kind of it being interactive of the show. History of those countries who he met with the beginning of his whole diplomatic strong diplomatic service and career, and his orientation, his personal diplomacy. He was so noted for it then. As they come around to the election of 88 and the campaign, a very strong segment on Mrs. Bush and the family campaigning and and there'll be interactive choices where they can pick and choose the the various themes and. Topics going into this coming up to this facade of the of the White House itself, and that's going to be the dominating icon. For this period. Walking through the entrance of the White House and seeing a large multimedia screen which will show morning. Evening and and daytime activities of the president in about 3 minutes segment that just will be very, very strong showing them. Then showing talking about the history of the White House as a place to live the family, and then beginning to go into the issues of the administration, what we want to do is make this an exciting experience, an experience that for for young people and and people of all ages who come in here to to. Leave and have a feeling of learning something about not only President Bush, but the the dramatic time period in which he served as President, United States.

C-Span Voiceover: Sunday Journal continues.

Steve Scully: Jim Pinkerton with Newsday, former speechwriter for President Bush. Good morning to you. Good morning. Thanks for joining us in. Don Bayer White House communications director. Still speechwriter with President Clinton, former speechwriter?

Donald Baer: Still working on these beaches.

Steve: Good morning to you. Good morning. What are?

Don: You reading this morning? Well, the first thing that hit me, of course, was the lead story in the Washington Post, which was about Dover DE. And the ceremony that took place up there yesterday, I was there with the President. It's one of the most stunning. Sad ceremonies I've ever seen, and I think the post article captures the spirit of it very well.

Steve: A quote from what the president had to say on their mission of peace and hope, they carried with them America spirit what our greatest martyr, Abraham Lincoln, called the last best hope of Earth. And the story goes on to say, written by the way, by David Marinus, that the sun was going down, and the next time it rose, it would be Easter morning, a day that marks the passage from. Loss and despair. The hope and redemption.

Don: Well, that's where we are today. It's Easter morning. It is very hard if you were not there and did not watch it all on television to convey the sense of devastation that took place up there in Dover yesterday. And it's of course great loss, great loss for the country, great loss for Washington and all the things that we're trying to do here, great loss for President Clinton personally. And I think this ceremony was was a bit of a release, a a catharsis for many people who were there, but you still feel the grief in the morning and the sadness for all of those people, the parents and the families who were there.

Steve: When was the last time the President spoke to the Commerce Secretary?

Don: The last time he talked to him probably was earlier this week, Monday, Monday afternoon, the Commerce secretary was at the White House for a meeting on various political matters, and they talked the President, in fact, in his remarks yesterday, remembered that and said how excited Ron Brown was about this mission, that he was going on. It's a mission of hope and healing and peace. In a way to take the sort of everyday. The building blocks to the people of the Balkans that they so desperately need to go forward from the war that they've experienced in Ron. I was in that meeting. Ron was just very, very excited about this and talking about the people he was taking with him and in particular the business people, the American business leaders, who he was going to take over there to to help sort of bring a new kind of piece.

Steve: Jim Pinkerton, what caught your eye this morning?

James Pinkerton: Well, just to add to the Ron Brown story, I mean as as John Dunn said, you know, no man has an island and said not to know for whom the bell tolls for tolls for thee, but on another sad story. The front page of the Washington Post has a very shrewd article on the Unabomber, in which these two authors, Joel Achenbach and Serge Kovaleski, have gone through the Unabombers. Text and and made the pulled out sort of what are clearly sort of autobiographical segments on the Unabomber, thoughts about how he was pushed too hard and it alleged to say that pushed too hard in math and science, and now it's not natural for people to have to go through the experience of of being pushed in, in, in to excel. And in these narrow. Somewhat hermetic studies, which obviously allegedly. Took him to Montana in a in a nice little place and it gives one larger. Preoccupations about, you know, in a time of reflection on the nature and purposes of American Society and human nature in general, what are we going to do as a matter of public policy with the larger and larger number of people who feel disconnected from society? This sort of alienation and loneliness? Which leads people to not only send letter bombs but also murder schoolchildren and and. You know all these horrible psycho crimes we're facing these days.

Steve: According to this article and a lot of attention on this 35,000 word manifesto, both authors in the Washington Post say that this diatribe is a autobiography, A psychological road map providing the best explanation for why a brilliant young mathematician would throw away his career to become a hermit in remote Montana. What do you make of the decision by the Washington Post and the New York Times to publish it last September?

Don: Well, as you know, Steve, the the Attorney General, Janet Reno and and the FBI director, Louis Free actually encouraged both papers to publish it because they felt that it would be a very good and useful investigative tool and and might help them in some respect to pull out who the Unabomber was. Now we have a suspect who has not been accused yet, so I think we have to be very, very careful about. How we refer to the situation as it exists right now, but it appears at least the publication and the decision to go forward with that was in fact a useful tool for the for the investigators. So to that extent, I think it was.

Jim: The right thing to do? I mean, it's the same logic as America. Most America's Most Wanted. I mean the the media can be. A tool to help uncover these people.

Steve: What else you?

Jim: Today I'm I'm struck by this article here in the outlook section of the Washington Post. There's been a movement among sort of the academic left to tell us that the crisis in our schools is not, in fact, a crisis, that things are OK in the schools, and we should be complacent. Effect and and and. So here's an article a textbook case of hype. The schools aren't failing. Well, I mean Bill Clinton, you know, among just about every other expert and politician has realized that the phenomenon of declining wage is the phenomenon of the middle class. Squeeze is in large measure due to the fact that schools are not working very well and I guess you can only as you can say only a college professor could talk himself or herself into thinking well, there's nothing to worry about. Fact of the matter is, American students are 13 in in, in math and science around the world, and that's directly correlated to the troubles that we're having in terms of maintaining the American dream for the vast bulk of the.

Don: You can't just break in is. I just want to say one thing quickly, Jim, Jim sort of referred to Bill Clinton have has realized as though he's sort of a Johnny come lately to this realization as Jim knows very well, Governor Bill Clinton was in the vanguard of pioneer for education reform and for helping to bring our schools into the 21st century. And has talked and worked very hard for the full term of his Presidency on education and training, on on reforming the education system. I gave a very big speech up at Palisades, NY at the National Governors Association Conference with business leaders on how we can meet the challenges that are coming. So I just want to make sure that we amend the record to make it clear. That this is not something that the President has just discovered. He's been working hard on this and actually achieving results right along well.

Jim: The the issue is of course, to what extent we're we're we're pushing forward on this issue. You're quite right. As as Governor of Arkansas back in 1990, Governor Clinton was seen to be advocating. School vouchers he he wrote a very praiseworthy letter to Holly Williams, the Black School voucher advocate of in. Inner City, Milwaukee and that was 1990. By the time 1992 rolled around, he was number longer for school vouchers. Although to his credit, he was still he has been pushing harder for for charter schools, so the points well taken. Almost everybody except the people who will run the academic ivory tower. Mediocracy agree the schools are in crisis, something drastic, dramatic needs to be done, and it is interesting to see how people with a straight face can defend the status quo that we have.

Steve: I want to have you put on your your former head as a former employee of U.S. news and World Report and talk to you for a moment about the. Numbers of time and Newsweek. This is the Time magazine cover. It's the odyssey of a mad genius who comes up with the the the covers for these magazines that the language that is used.

Don: Well, the actual language itself is typically sort of committee of top editors in in a magazine like that, the editors, the executive editors, and managing editors. We'll Mull over the best way to convey whatever the storyline is supposed to be in a magazine.

Steve: When time has this on its cover and U.S. news has the same story, how does that affect newsstand sales?

Don: Ohh I don't know that's it's a very hard thing to judge and measure. Typically what they're trying to do is to come up with the best story of the week. Sometimes that's a story that's on the news, like this story. Sometimes it's a story that is off the news, especially for one of these news magazines, which is trying to define itself one way or the other. But they have. I hate to say a lot of fun when you're talking about something as gruesome as this, but they do. It's it's a challenge every week to come up with something that's gonna grab the readers.

Steve: And pull them into it. What's the latest? A News magazine can go to print with any changes.

Don: It depends on the magazine. Time and Newsweek both close on Saturdays. They have a later close U.S. news closes on Friday night for very unusual circumstances. All of them have been known to stay open, as they say, stay open for an extra day, which for U.S. news means they would close on Saturday and for time and Newsweek sometime Sunday. Mid Sunday, sometimes in cases of war, national emergency, whatever they do that at great cost, I think of financial cost.

Steve: Newsweek has an in-depth investigation into the case against the suspect in the Unabomber case. We do not have. The cover what's the difference between covering the news and working inside the White House?

Jim: I think I first met Don when he was at U.S. news taking me to lunch back in the old days before the ethics rules prohibited reporters paying for lunches. I I think that it's it's it's. There's been a lot of criticism of the revolving door phenomenon and you know how terrible it is. And so I think it's actually useful for people to walk in both sets of moccasins, respectively. You certainly never get the feeling inside the White House that reporters, really. The essence of the decision making process, oftentimes in a strange way, because the reporters are sort of too cynical, they're immediately saying, well, obviously there's only the, the, the, the, the future Pulitzer Prize we win will be because we uncover Watergate and so on. And and the usual explanation for stupidity and malfeasance and stupidity and incompetence in the White House is not some. Mass criminal conspiracy is usually just somebody forgot you know somebody left it in their inbox and, you know, threw it away by accident and so on. So stipulating that that that most you know the principle of Occam's razor comes in and you say, look, the explanation is usually simpler than the most elaborate conspiracy theory possible. UM that I guess that was my biggest feeling in the White House was not everything was. The October surprise you.

Steve: Mentioned the revolving door. The Washington Post business section has an article this morning with Frank Carlucci, Richard Darman, and James Baker. I know you worked with the three of these gentlemen over your years in both the Reagan and the Bush administrations, all three.

Jim: Right, right.

Steve: Now our partners in the Carlisle. Group, which is an investment banking firm here in Washington. NDC over the last six years, if you invested money on Wall Street, you would have received about a 13% return. But The Carlyle Group has received an annual return of 32.7%, according to John Mince, the buyout players raising $1.3 billion in new funds with which to strike future deals, according to experts. What do you make?

Jim: Of all of this, though, I have not read that article, but I did read there's a a terrific Michael Lewis article in the New Republic two or three years ago about about The Carlyle Group, and it made the point that they were as as much as anything. And the title the the cover story was called Access, Access, capitalism, they were they were trafficking in their government connections mostly to do deals concerned with defense company buyouts and so on. And I think having said that, the revolving door in terms of people going from recovering the news to making the news strike struck me as innocent. I do think that areas where people are moving millions and billions of dollars around. On the basis of, you know contracts, especially from the, you know from sole source vendors does does require some scrutiny?

Steve: Frank Carlucci, the defense during the last year or so of the Reagan administration, **** Darman, who was the director of the Office of Management and Budget during the Bush Administration and of course, James Baker, former Treasury Secretary. The former Secretary of State, both the Reagan and the Bush administrations, does it help when you have these names on your door as partners in the group?

Don: I just want to ask why Jim Pinkerton didn't go through the revolving door into the car. They've got those kinds of earnings.

Steve: What is The Carlyle Group? How would? You describe it.

Don: It's it's an investment advisory and business advisory group that that helps businesses and business people to figure out what their strategies ought to be and how they ought to work. These of you, the governments, and so much of business both domestically and internationally, has to work with government in order to achieve whatever goals they have. I think that's. What they do?

Jim: It is what they do and and and it's intensely politicized and it's intensely oriented towards who you know both in the in the executive branch and the. And to me, it's an issue. It's an issue that if you have good friends and colleagues and people you've done favors for in the past, who are in a position to, to, to sign a contract one way or the other. Way again I've I've not read the article, it's just it's just a source of concern. People out there in Heartland have a right to wonder whether. And right to be concerned that that Washington is a game rigged for insiders.

Don: Can break in on this, Jim, you're right. It is a real source for concern and we need stricter lobbying reform so that we can avoid the kind of grossest violations that exist and we've we've pushed for them their proposals up on Congress. I think we should see some. Movement forward on that as soon as possible, but it is also a matter of what you know. Just to your point, the expertise and the knowledge to know what the how the process works and how the process doesn't work and what makes it work are not work and that it isn't always a conspiracy or a grand political strategy or plan, but sometimes just people working or not working well for a given. Day or set of days. Those are important bits of knowledge for people to have from the inside and why it's a useful thing for people like you and me. Perhaps to have have the experience to go in and out so that we can see how things really.

Steve: What do you find the biggest difference between working for U.S. news and now working inside the Clinton? White House.

Don: Well, the biggest difference is I work a lot harder inside the White House than in the US. News, which is not to say it didn't work hard at U.S. news, but it's just a constant, steady flow stream avalanche sometimes of of of responsibilities inside the White House. But I agree with Jim. When you're outside looking in and covering something like the White House, which I did briefly in 88. Moving on, there's a desire to put some sort of a framework in order over the universe that you're look. It's not always an ordered situation. It is not always a situation that can be explained by some vast theory that you may have about who's doing what to whom and why certain things are working quite often is people going through their daily responsibilities not not with any kind of a political strategy to it. The other thing that I think happens a great deal from the standpoint of the press. Looking in is that every motivation is typically ascribed to. To some sort of political desire, goal aspiration on the part of an individual or a party or an administration. That isn't necessarily what drives things, and and there are much larger goals, aspirations, motivations that drive people beyond just the pure political. And we don't give enough credit to that. A lot of times from the press perspective.

Steve: Hey look inside page a, four of The Washington Times. This morning, preparations underway on the South lawn of the White House for the Easter Egg Roll, which will take place tomorrow. How many children will be on the South?

Don: I don't know. It is a lot and there's a huge preparation that goes on. Now I understand that in the forecast there is snow and I'm not sure when, if ever, the last time there there was snow at an Easter egg roll. I hope we don't have that because I'm planning to take my 2 little boys tomorrow morning and I want them to to be. Able to enjoy it and to be warm at the same time.

Steve: Just above that is a story by Michael Myers, Republican freshman army against the AFL-CIO. And estimated $25 million being spent by organized labor to help out with a number of targeted seats. 73 Freshman Republicans, many of whom are targeted, including a couple mentioned in this article and in The Weekly Standard, is another piece. Speaking of money in politics, Congressman Newt. Gingrich, the Speaker of the House, will be spending a lot of time raising money, according to Linda Killian, who says that after botching budget negotiations with President Clinton, he has taken a back seat to that. But he is taking a front role to fundraising. He'll do an average of 6 fundraisers a week between now and November, dropping in on 175 House district.

Steve: Comment on either story.

Jim: Well, certainly. I mean, the whole money in politics. Is, you know. Arguably the the issue which when you talk to real people out there, they're most preoccupied with and at some level they just they find it corrupt and and and and and it was Michael Kinsley who once said that the real scandal in Washington is picking up on what Don just said is not what's. It's what's legal. It's what goes on every day as a as a, as a matter of a matter of course. And if the American Cyanide Association hand you a check for $5000, and in terms of a pack, you gotta figure they want something returned for it and and. And so it works both ways. There's an article action, not an article, on the on the op-ed page of. Today's New York Times. There's a there's an ad. Put out by the state employees of of New York State lobbying pretty nakedly as as your viewers can see now, for more money, higher taxes and and a bigger government for New York State. And and this this is these are probably affiliates of the matter of fact, they are AFL-CIO affiliates. There they are. Spending millions to to reap billions in bigger.

Steve: Give us a call. We'll put the numbers up on the screen. We should also point out that it will be a relatively quiet week on Capitol Hill. The house and the Senate out for the Easter Passover recess. Members will be back next Monday. A fax from a viewer in Plymouth, MA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have yet to seen see or hear any message of condolences or sympathy from Senator Dole or speaker. Gingrich, in relation to the Croatian plane crash this from the party that keeps shouting about family values.

Don: It's a good question.

Jim: It's the hound of the Baskervilles, the dog that didn't bark. I don't. I don't know. I don't know.

Steve: No, no letter or note or condolences that you're.

Don: Aware of? Not that I'm aware of, I I wouldn't necessarily be aware of it, but I think it's. A very good question.

Steve: Jackson, Ms. Good morning.

Caller #8: Yes, I have a question in reference to the Freeman held up in Montana. Now, from my understanding, these people have written bad checks. They threaten people's lives. They hung posters in their town to bring to have people bring in marshals and deputies and judges. And I'm just wondering why was it taking the FBI or the? Yeah, AFL, I guess. No, the ATF. So long to go and arrest these people. I mean, they're criminals when you have drug dealers or selling drugs who have arms held up in their home, if they may have their children, it takes the police no time to go in and bust down doors. The kids are traumatized but yet and still these people are held up. Or what a couple of. Weeks now, and they're just sitting out there, I mean.

Jim: Coming. Yeah, this is. Building on a theme that both Don and I agreed on earlier, which is it's from the outside, it's hard to get inside the decision making process of the Justice Department or the FBI and so on. I mean, most of the time in high profile criminal cases, it is a total damn if you do and damned if you don't situation. I mean, you know the I mean it's the Waco disaster. Is something that people still talk about, and it's worth remembering that the, the, the, the Justice Department waited 51 days before anything happened there. I mean, you can still say they made mistakes and so on. But it was surely the case that they were not looking from the get go to go, you know, have that this disaster in in Waco, TX. And I'm sure that hanging heavy over Louis Free and Janet Reno is the prospect of some. Carnage in Montana. And so they're so they're going slow and yet people say they're going slow. Well, how come the cops are so tough on, you know, Mexicans on a on a car in in Riverside, CA. And it's just, it's just a case where, you know, it helps to. Sort of be familiar with. The way these things work before you. Cast overly harsh judge.

Steve: Quick note about tomorrow we'll be focusing a lot of attention on international affairs, Bosnia, Russia, the Mideast, Asia and Europe all morning tomorrow here in the Washington Journal. Let's get a call from Bloomington IN. Go ahead.

Caller #9: Please yes, I have a opportunity for Mr. Because of his ability probably to have more access than I've had over the years. But this is concerning the educational system, whether it's failed or not. And it's something that I have found out over the past few years that progressive education got its start from a man named John Dewey, which has not mentioned very much who came from Germany. And obtained a position at the Columbia University as professor of philosophy. And his basic premise built. From the foundation for progressive education is that we people are nothing more than higher forms of animals. But we're the highest form. And that were ruled best by pleasure and pain. And I would challenge Mr. Pinkerton to please look that up and bring some of that out, because I think. There on that foundation is probably over years and years and years is what's caused a lot to do with what we have.

Jim: Well, John Dewey was a, as the caller says, a a progressive educator in the first half of of of the century. And I've I've read a there's actually a a biography of him that came out a a couple of years ago, which is worth looking at. Fairly sympathetic, I'd say a. The progressive movement was the reform. Movement of the the turn of the turn of the century, where they they had a a basically secular view of of mankind and and thought. Thought they could improve the well-being and the common will through. More in in intense public education, it was hard to in context, it's hard to criticize them. In retrospect, we can say that they made some mistakes and and that more to the point, any system that was state-of-the-art system in 1925 or 1935. Almost is by definition obsolete today, and so the challenge for any institution, especially public institutions, that we all have a right to claims and accountability on, is to make sure that they keep up to make sure that they change with new technology and and new realizations. And I and I, and I agree that that certainly secular humanist. Education is not the only way to do it, and that would make it desirable to have for all kids to have a choice. So they they're they and their parents can pick the school which best suits them, whether it's Christian or Jewish or Muslim or secular.

Steve: If you pick up The Weekly Standard, one of the articles that you'll see is a piece by Fred Barnes called Shooting Star. And he begins by talking about the the lines of responsibility between Mark Fabiani, who's a lawyer in the White House counsel's office, and Mike Mccurry, when it comes to whitewater, what are the divisions of responsibility?

Don: Well, I think the decision was made some time ago that that the whitewater situation is sufficiently complicated and separate from the day-to-day operations of the White House that the White House decided they they wanted someone who could deal with that and only that, both for the press and internally to help explain what's going on when you've got so many volumes of subpoenas. And then documents that have to be produced as a result of those subpoenas and complicated legal matters, having someone like Fabiani there, who is a lawyer has had experience with working with these kinds of detailed things just makes a lot of sense. And when you consider the breadth and depth of a job like Mike Mccurry's is the press secretary and how many things on a daily basis, crises as well as normal matters, he has to deal with it. This makes a lot of sense organizational.

Steve: Fred Barnes calls it a nifty division of Labor and says that if he agreed to answer questions about whitewater, referring to Mike Mccurry, I'd quickly do nothing else and whitewater would become a much bigger story.

Jim: I I I. The communications director at the White House sometime ought to invite C-SPAN over to look at the document room on White Runner. I'm sure that it fills those 18 foot ceilings to the to the top in the old executive office building just the the the amount of data, whatever you think about the case, the amount of data there is is overwhelming and I'm sure it's a. Completely full time job for Fabiani, plus an unknown number of other clerks and. Somehow I mean when. Congress has.

Don: Spent, you know, according to the papers, last week, $17 million in this. Instigation. You have to imagine that there's an enormous amount of work back at the White House with place where people have are supposed to produce things in response to that $17 million of investigation, and someone like, like Fabiani just is able to help in that whole process so that we can get on with our regular work at. The White House, that's what we're there about.

Steve: Max Frankel has an article this morning, the New York Times Sunday magazine Long lived the monarchy. He points out that 3/4 of the nations 1500, more than 1500 newspapers, are now owned remotely or by chains. And that large chains are swallowing up the smaller ones. He says that no longer are there papers like the New York Times and the Grahams, which are becoming a rare breed owned by families. He wants to go back to.

Jim: That great, I mean, you know, I can't get very excited about corporate control of newspapers at the time when, you know. All of us get e-mail and you know, talk radio. I mean, there's so many. There's so much media proliferation now. That the fear that Gannett or or somebody is going to run this country through newspapers and the decline of family. As well, you know, look, shareholders run these things and and you know that they're they're just as anxious for reap the maximum return, whether they're the family or some pension fund someplace. So, you know, again, not having read the article. It doesn't strike me as something to get.

Don: Too excited about also, I haven't read the article yet, but but he he he cites 2 of the newspapers which are two of the three or four most powerful newspapers in America that are still run by families and that do tend to set the tone for much of the rest of American.

Steve: Publishing, he also points out people like the Taylors of the Boston Globe and the Daniels is of the Raleigh News and Observer. But one paragraph from the story family ownership, of course, is no guarantee of distinguished newspapering and the Wall Street Journal is daily proof that corporate ownership need not be the enemy of quality. But most chain owners decree no journalistic mission. Or political line for their wards. They demand only a relentless growth on the bottom line.

Jim: So why are you? Article and what's what's his problem? And I guess just go show you deadlines sometimes don't always serve people who work on weekly basis.

Steve: Marsing, Idaho you're with us.

Caller #10: Yes, I am.

Steve: Good morning.

Caller #10: Well, good morning.

Steve: What are you reading? Where is marsing? By the way.

Caller #10: Marsing is about 30 miles West of Boise in Beautiful Valley. We just moved here six months ago from the. Albuquerque, NM but we just love it in Idaho and very happy, and I'm glad it's Easter Sunday. That's must be how I got through.

Steve: Why did you move from New Mexico to Idaho?

Caller #10: Well, technically drive by shootings and you know the total decay of the family and that had to do with something I wanted to talk about this. Morning real quick.

Steve: Go ahead.

Caller #10: To your director of the White House, you know somebody's going to take these people, smirks off their face for him to suggest that Dole and Newt Gingrich do not care about these people that died on that on that plane crash is so terrible. And Dan Quayle, 4 years ago was the one that was laughed out of this out of politics. And family values. But what I wanted to say is our President has spent the last week. With Mrs. Brown, Ron Brown, what about those other 303335 families? Aren't their husbands just as important as somebody that works for the government?

Jim: Can I can I answer that? I mean, I was watching Don's face when the. The caller the the facts came in a second ago that said how where is Newt Gingrich and and and Bob Dole on this? And that's clear to me that that none of the three of us at this table had had thought of that as a as a variable. You know you can't keep track of everything and and the the, the, the. The absence of. Something, or the perceived absence something is. Not something you immediately leave to. I think that the Clinton administration and and I this is a small town and we all know people who were, at least in my case, know people who know people who were who were were killed in that in that tragic accident. I think the I think Bill Clinton has. Done a remarkable job of reaching out to everybody who was remotely involved in that tragedy, both in the government, in the military. Specifically said many times, also the people in the military and also the people in the business community who run. That plane too, I mean. I've got my differences with Bill Clinton, but on this one, he's served all of us well as an American president.

Don: Thank you, Jim. I I just want to respond. First off all I said to to the caller was that I didn't know the answer to the question that had come in over the facts and that I thought it was a good question and that's all I said. I didn't imply anything other than that. As for the President to Jim's. Right. Not only has he publicly gone out of his way because it is his job to do that, and he feels it very deeply to make sure that he has acknowledged and recognized the grief and the loss of everyone. Who died in that crash? But he has spent an enormous amount of time since the death, not just with Mrs. Brown, who is a very good friend of his, but also calling and talking to. The families and parents and children of everyone, of the people who was killed. Or with a telephone. And yesterday he the first lady and the vice president went room to room to meet with everyone of the families of the 33 people who were brought back yesterday. President feels very, very deeply about the loss that these individuals have suffered and about that which the country has suffered.

Jim: And I also think that he is. I'm not mistaken. I saw this on another network that he shook the hand of all the the. 1000 people in Oklahoma City, the Department of.

Don: I already mentioned that in the course of all this, he was scheduled already to go to Oklahoma City to commemorate the 1st anniversary of the of the horrible bombing. There he went ahead to do that on Friday and that is exactly right, Jim. He spoke with all every person who was there, gathered who were victims or families of survivors and. And has has felt this very deeply in a personal way, but also recognizes that it's an important thing for the healing of the country that that we should all be brought together during a moment like this.

Steve: Is there one thing that you did not know going into your job at the White House that you've learned in the last couple of years that you've worked for this President?

Don: Know about the president?

Steve: About the presidency, about the White House. About yourself.

Don: There's one thing there's so many things I think. Again, the one thing that is stunning to me is that you experienced. I'm sure Jim feels this as well. Such exhilaration that that the the experiences that one lives through the historic moments, that one's. Able to witness the opportunities that one has to make a contribution are so enormous, and yet it comes at you so fast and so quickly, and you're trying to juggle and balance other aspects of life like family. At the same time that it is often hard to stop and take account of what it all means in your life and what it all means for the country.

Jim: I guess I I certainly agree with that. I mean, you know the the place is so rich with history, I would just add that you also get the feeling of how in the same way that a a mainframe computer no longer works very well in a in a network to decentralized economy, you do get at least I got the feeling when I when I was in the White House. That that the ability of the White House to make a qualitative difference to, to, to change things, to actually affect the way kids get educated on the ground was diminishing that the that the basic system upon which the the the executive branch. Is is crumbling and falling apart and it made it in that sense of discouraging experience because I no longer believe after my time there that that the way the federal government was currently operating was going to be effective at solving people's problems out in Heartland.

Don: Yeah, that's interesting. I I want to come in on that. I think I agree with you wholeheartedly about the dramatic change that we're going through now as a country and the sort of forces and impulses that that drive the Nation Today and the world. I do think that one of the things that I have seen is the extent to which the President, a President and the use of the Presidency actually can move a nation and sometimes outside of all of the forces of a bureaucracy or the larger administrative desires and concerns, we've seen it just since the President State of the Union address this year, where. By making some issues, for instance, like television violence, a big issue in his state of the Union, the President working with people in the private sector, people in government have actually been able to move forward, make progress in a way that I don't think would have been possible unless we used his his opportunities in that way. There's a there's a huge amount of force and power that that emanates from the presidency still.

Steve: Let's quickly point out if you read the New York Times bestseller list among the the books that Americans are reading in contempt by Chris Darden is #1 blood sport by James Stewart is #2.

Don: Have you read the book? No, I haven't. I've read the excerpts that were in time.

Steve: Magazine #3 is al Franken's. Rush Limbaugh is a big fat idiot.

Don: Haven't read that either.

Steve: Undaunted courage by Stephen Ambrose, the story of how Thomas Jefferson sponsored the exploration of the American West by Lewis and Clark is #4 and Hillary Clinton's book. It takes a village #5 on the New York Times bestseller list. Let's get a call from Statesville NC. Good morning.

Caller #11: Yes, good morning. I'd like for Mr. Jim Pinkerton or Mr. Donald Barr to address this issue, and that is maybe Mr. Pinkerton is a little young to address it, but if you take your. Mind back to. In the 60s, when the Black Panthers were shot up in Chicago and just ten years ago, some organization by the name of move. Was burned out in Philadelphia by law enforcement officers. The other question is, has there ever been? A shootout by the government with the. With an organization like the Freeman or the Klu Klux Klan, and if not, why so and why the hold up with the Freeman now compared to to the move? Burnout in Philadelphia 10 years ago.

Steve: Done there.

Don: Well, I don't know all the history of of either the move burnout, although I remember it. Jim Pinkerton, by the way, is not. As young as he looks. I don't remember all of that. There have been circumstances in which I think if the callers point is when right wing groups, white hate groups have been moved in on by federal authorities, of course there have been those situations. Jim alluded to some of them before. I think if anything, we hope that our law enforcement. Has learned in the course of the years by from mistakes that have been made about how it's very important not to move precipitously and too quickly, but to be very, very careful and cautious. You know there are. There are innocent victims involved in situations like this. There are people who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in situations where they may be held hostage or they may be held against their will and you just have to be very, very careful on law enforcement.

Steve: A viewer from Las Vegas says if lobbying and campaign reforms take place, what are the odds of the millions that the unions divert to the Democrats will be affected?

Jim: See the the problem with the campaign finance reform the way it's conceived of, I think typically in Washington is. You can outlaw packs, and I frankly wouldn't mind if we outlawed packs. You can do all that and as long as the government is spending a trillion and a half dollars a year, as long as the long arm of OSHA and the EPA and the Securities and Exchange Commission and the FCC and all these groups, agencies exist, people can find a way to. Act their fair share of it or their unfair share of it. More to the point, it's just this is the whole this whole town is to use a an attractive nuisance to to to people who want something out of the government. And I mean, you know, whether it's the the proverbial case, St. lobbyist or the American Association of Retired Persons, all 34 million of them. People find it advantageous and and more to the point, profitable to come to Washington and and wheedle in pressure. And so if you outlaw. Political action campaign contributions. They'll find some way on the Internet, or telepathy or skywriting or something to to to to influence things. And so I I am as long as the government is big, lobbying will be big.

Steve: Tim Pinkerton, A columnist with a Newsday, also lecturing at George Washington University here in Washington, served in the Reagan administration as a in the office of Policy and Political Affairs and also Director of Policy Planning for the Bush Administration and a speech writer. Graduate of Stanford University. Where's home originally?

Jim: Cambridge, MA.

Steve: And on their home originally, Fayetteville, NC, graduate of University of North Carolina and the London School of Economics and the University of Virginia, how long have you been?

Don: That's right.

Steve: At the White House. Two years and prior.

Don: To that, I was at U.S. news and World Report for about 7 years. Before that I was at the American Lawyer magazine where Jim Stewart, who wrote blood sport. Also got his start for about a year and a half and before that, as always like to say, I think I've said it on this show before for three years, five months and three days, I was a lawyer in New York City.

Steve: You have it down to the day. Why did you leave the profession?

Don: I was more interested in being a journalist and doing things that were more in the public life of the country.

Steve: You mentioned blood sport. If you get the perspective page of the Baltimore Sun, there's an article by Gregory Foster who graduated from Hot Springs High School in 1965, a year after Bill Clinton, he is now an educator in the Washington, DC, area. The story is called a blemish Presidency, and he points out blood sport and 1st in his class, David Marinus's autobiography about Bill Clinton, saying that if you read both book books, what you find out is that the impression leaving me and others is that high public official who will not accept responsibility referring to the President who relies on protective. However, from others and who surrounds himself with political hacks.

Don: Well, I don't know if you'd call me a political hack, but I I will tell you I don't know the impression left by blood sports since I haven't read the whole book. That could not be that portrait cannot be further from the truth of the Bill Clinton that I work with in now. And I think you you judge character especially for a president based on the fights he takes on and he's willing to stand up for and Bill Clinton. Consistently throughout his career, and certainly as President, has taken on the tough fights on behalf of the American people and in many cases has won those tough fights. But whether win or lose, he's been there, whether it's with regard to gun control and the assault. Span, whether it's with regard to cutting the deficit he promised in 1992 that he would cut the deficit in half. He now is on the course by the end of this year, according to the Congressional Budget Office, to having cut it in half to 140 billion. Dollars a year. He's he he promised to create 8,000,000 jobs. We now have 8.4 million new jobs in this economy. An economy which, by the way, in the preceding years before he came to office, was losing jobs at a rapid clip. He promised that he would invest in America's workers so that people could have the education. Children could have the education and people could have the education and training they need, and he has worked hard to do that. He promised to open the world up to American exports and to create American jobs, and we have 8080. Serious trade agreements that have been put in place since this administration came into place, many of them by Mickey Kantor, the US Trade Representative, and Ron Brown, the deceased Commerce Secretary, working very hard on that are creating jobs and their high wage jobs. I I think just on a personal note, I got to know the President when he was still the Governor of Arkansas and I was covering. During the 1991 in 1992, president. Cycle and I found him them to to be a very deeply caring person about ordinary individuals and a person of great character. If this man knows him from Hot Springs, he knows the kind of world that Bill Clinton comes from. It's a world where people cared about one another, had a real sense of community, and helped one another. And that is who Bill Clinton is. I don't think he runs or hides. From anything he has stood up for these things.

Steve: Later on this program, we will be spending some time looking at the Bush Presidential Library site in College Station, TX. Why was that chosen from your standpoint?

Jim: Was chosen because Texas A&MI think made the best offer. I was just in Texas College Station, TX. I will tell you it will be far and away the highlight of anybody's visit to College Station. TX will be the Bush library. It's a very. Avid school, a lot of school spirit, a lot of energy and enthusiasm among the student body there and so on. It's it's a good choice. They will. Of a lot of volunteer activities and stuff associated with which will give the library a sense of spirit and community and lift.

Steve: How does the the Clinton White House Archive all the material that it has had so far to? I assume eventually have? A library somewhere.

Don: Yeah, Steve, I don't know the answer to that. I know we have. There's a, there's a White House historian who is there who works a lot on the papers and as well as notes about the presidency. And they are moving things. I'm sure our staff secretaries office run by Todd Stern. Works very hard with the archival people to move all of that. The President is very keen and has a strong sense of the history of of previous presidents. You know, as you know, he reads many books about previous presidents. And so I think this is something that he, he does think a great deal about.

Steve: In your mind, do you think the library would be in Arkansas? I don't know. Mention education.

Don: Way, way too early to tell. That's five years away.

Steve: Let's get a call. You mentioned education. We'll get this call, too, from New Jersey. But a viewer, if I can get the right facts here, sent this in from Cedar Rapids, IA. Roseanne Freeberg writing about improving schools as easy as ABC. Let's get a call from New Jersey. Go ahead please. Speaker 8 Yes, good morning, gentlemen.

Steve: Good morning. Speaker 8 I'm proud to confess that I'm a CPAN John.

Steve: Well, we're glad to hear from you. Speaker 8 Anyway, for your panel Members, I we were exposed to the idea and the analysis that Ron Brown essentially was a crossover. Politician that he was a person of color. Who moved very well in any kind of diverse situation. And I wonder. Whether there are equivalent? You know, in The Who are, let's say, white politicians. And for Mr. Bear, I wonder about Bill Clinton standing up for, let's say, Lani Guinier and Jocelyn Elk. Would you say he was a person of strength regarding their situation, or did he simply go along with the prevailing opinion that these people were somehow too controversial aide to have a hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee and B to even have a hearing as to what Jocelyn Elders actually said before she was? Fired in such a disgraceful way.

Don: No, I wouldn't agree with that assessment at all. I'd also say that he point out that he stood up for affirmative action last summer for the notion that we, we we should not end it, we should mend it, that he has stood up time and time again to to make sure that everyone in this society has it shares the benefits of it and that. From personnel decisions of 1 sort. Another you will have differences, but I think on the large questions, the big questions that are moving America right now and that are moving the world's president has stood very, very firm. You know, I wanted to say I wanted to point out my favorite article that I read this morning in the paper is a piece by David Broder. And I hope many people across the country will have a chance to see it. It is in the Washington Post this morning, but because Mr. Broder is a nationally syndicated columnist, I think many of you will. It's entitled Ron Brown, to honor his memory, and I think what's most important about it, since you mentioned Ron Brown, is that Ron Brown, more than anything else, was a man who got things done. He was about moving forward and accomplishing things on behalf of the public. He was genuinely a public servant in that regard. Art and what David Broder says is the best way to honor Ron Brown's memory is to get past the partisanship which is now infecting Washington, which the president has called for people to do and not to spend seven months in a partisan presidential campaign, but literally to get back here and get to work. Everyone, like, wants to talk. The press all wants to talk about this being a big campaign. Year they forget it's the fourth year of the Clinton presidency, and it and it's the second year of this Congress, and it's time to come back here now after the Easter recess, for Congress to come back and to work with the president to get some things done. And Mr. Broder points out the things that they could get done would be first to reach a balanced budget agreement that protects Medicare and Medicaid, strengthens education in the environment. To pass the Kennedy Kassebaum Healthcare bill to pass a tax credit for children for people of middle income, which is something the President has supported very strongly, and to pass a job training voucher to go to some of the issues that Jim Pinkerton talks a great deal about and has written a great deal about quite, quite well. So that American workers have the chance to take money on their own. Vouchers on their own and use it so that they can get retrained so that they can become a part of the new global economy in the way that we feel they need to. It's time to get these things done and I hope everyone will take the moment today, tomorrow.

Steve: Whenever you see it to read this David Carter or we don't have time to talk about it. But if you pick up the New York Times, there isn't a. Piece about Ron Brown his memo that he wrote January 17th, 1992, his plan to try to defeat George Bush and some of the recommended recommendations that he put forth as chairman of the Democratic Party. Funeral arrangements still pending, but we're told that it would be it will.

Don: Be mid week sometime that week. I think a service at National National Cathedral here in Washington and probably barrel at Arlington Cemetery.

Steve: Final word from you.

Jim: On Ron Brown again. Just you know, every everybody in well, everybody in life has been on airplanes and and you know it, it's just an act of faith sometimes to get on a plane and the storm and lightning out there and and and you know it. It's the 35 people who were killed in that plane. It's just a a terrible tragedy.

Steve: Jim Pinkerton, thanks very much for joining us and Don Bear, thank you. Hope you'll come back. Also, we should point out that the Funeral services that will be open to cameras, we of course will cover it, including the eulogy expected by President Clinton to take place at the National Cathedral in Northwest Washington. We'll be right back.